Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #161  
Old 29.09.2018, 12:20
3Wishes's Avatar
Moderately Amused
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Bern area
Posts: 11,350
Groaned at 90 Times in 86 Posts
Thanked 19,665 Times in 8,701 Posts
3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is South Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

Quote:
View Post
https://albertonrecord.co.za/189471/...tion-question/
The "eKurhuleni Metro" city's mayor has decided on land expropriation without compensation, and indentified four sections of land for this.
Whelp, that's not constitutional so we'll see how it plays out. So far the courts have upheld the constitution. The ANC has put itself in a tough position, basically over-promising "land for all" without much of a plan on how to do it - legally and peacefully.
Reply With Quote
  #162  
Old 29.09.2018, 14:33
3Wishes's Avatar
Moderately Amused
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Bern area
Posts: 11,350
Groaned at 90 Times in 86 Posts
Thanked 19,665 Times in 8,701 Posts
3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is South Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

Quote:
View Post
Whether or not it is within what the constitution allows is a subject of much high-ranking legal debate. Some argue that the constitutution, in its current form, already allows for expropriation without compensation.
Even Rhamaposa, who helped write the constitution, does not think this the case though. The question appears mostly to be about compensation rather than expropriation. Expropriation is already mentioned in the Constitution (emphasis mine):
Quote:
25 Property
(1) No one may be deprived of property except in terms of law of general application, and no law may permit arbitrary deprivation of property.
(2) Property may be expropriated only in terms of law of general applicationó
(a) for a public purpose or in the public interest; and
(b) subject to compensation, the amount of which and the time and manner of payment of which have either been agreed to by those affected or decided or approved by a court.
The section that some scholars say allows expropriation to not be compensated is this:
Quote:
(8) No provision of this section may impede the state from taking legislative and other measures to achieve land, water and related reform, in order to redress the results of past racial discrimination...
As best I can tell, any expropriation needs to happen at the federal level or at least a provincial level, not at the city level. In fact, one of the tracts of land planned for expropriation mentioned in your article belongs to the province. I'm reasonably certain the Gauteng province will want to nip this in the bud, to avoid other communities getting the idea that taking provincial land is okay.

Huffpost article with some additional analysis:
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.za/201...nd_a_23372955/

Constitution here: http://www.elections.org.za/content/...-Constitution/ (it's a PDF so I'm linking to the site instead, where one can download the PDF)
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank 3Wishes for this useful post:
  #163  
Old 29.09.2018, 20:28
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Is South Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

How many of those expropriated in 48 and after, been compensated I wonder.

I know of one (1) succesful landclaim by Coloureds in Constantia, Cape Town- going through right now.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #164  
Old 29.09.2018, 22:01
3Wishes's Avatar
Moderately Amused
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Bern area
Posts: 11,350
Groaned at 90 Times in 86 Posts
Thanked 19,665 Times in 8,701 Posts
3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is South Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

Quote:
How many of those expropriated in 48 and after, been compensated I wonder.

I know of one (1) succesful landclaim by Coloureds in Constantia, Cape Town- going through right now.
I'm not arguing in favor of compensation. I'm simply stating what I think the hurdle is for the government right now.

To the poor, the idea that everyone's going to get a slice of land sounds fantastic. Some of the land whites now farm and live on was never occupied by anyone or was only occupied by tribal people that moved on well before Apartheid. Many of the blacks living in SA aren't originally from SA and aren't descendants of original tribes. Who gets land? How much? Where? As always the devil is in the details if you don't want to end up a repeat of Zimbabwe.

As to your question I don't know but a wild guess would be most were not compensated. At the same time, the current government has to work with the current constitution, which came about after Apartheid ended.

I'd argue that anyone whose land was taken between 1948 and 1994 should at least be compensated, if not given back their land if at all practical. In some cases, that may not be practical - particularly if we're talking about profitable vineyards in Constantia or diamond mines near Kimberley. Perhaps some co-ownership/sharing of profits/right to reside on the land and make a living would be a compromise?

There is no easy, one-size-fits-all answer to this issue.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank 3Wishes for this useful post:
  #165  
Old 29.09.2018, 22:09
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 3,736
Groaned at 72 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 3,970 Times in 2,141 Posts
rainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is South Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

I may be wrong - but if the government there had any money to re-distribute, they'd have already done so.

These things usually only come up when there's no money but politicians need to keep voters happy who were promised the moon - and they (politicians) subsequently don't want to admit having made a mistake.
Reply With Quote
  #166  
Old 29.09.2018, 22:10
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Is South Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

Good post 3 Wishes - I agree - but ...
Reply With Quote
  #167  
Old 29.09.2018, 22:15
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Is South Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

Quote:
View Post
I may be wrong - but if the government there had any money to re-distribute, they'd have already done so.

These things usually only come up when there's no money but politicians need to keep voters happy who were promised the moon - and they (politicians) subsequently don't want to admit having made a mistake.
If they promise it for long enough they eventually have to do it to keep the power or explain the people why they don't do it. This goes beyond a simple promised tax reform that eventually can be forgotten.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #168  
Old 05.11.2018, 13:03
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 12,361
Groaned at 340 Times in 276 Posts
Thanked 26,264 Times in 11,001 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is South Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

Quote:
View Post
http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unt...a-1226462.html


"Agricultural production output: minus 29.2%".


Ouch.
Agricultural production is down in Europe too.

It's been a bad year weather-wise.

A farmer friend of mine says about maize for example, that in a good year he can make 20 tonnes per hectare, this year he made six.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #169  
Old 05.11.2018, 18:50
jacek's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Aargau
Posts: 8,855
Groaned at 125 Times in 92 Posts
Thanked 6,571 Times in 3,638 Posts
jacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is South Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

Quote:
View Post
Cyril Ramaphosa - 1st November 2018
https://www.businesslive.co.za/bd/na...ril-ramaphosa/
Being absolutely realistic about the RSAís economy at the moment one should always look for a silver lining though. Iím following the news and it seems like more good is coming than negative during presidentís Ramaphosa tenure.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank jacek for this useful post:
  #170  
Old 05.11.2018, 19:51
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Is South Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

Quote:
View Post
Agricultural production is down in Europe too.

It's been a bad year weather-wise.

A farmer friend of mine says about maize for example, that in a good year he can make 20 tonnes per hectare, this year he made six.
Driving up and down Italy in September, we came across 1000s of acres of brown, burnt out maize - not an ear of corn to be seen.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #171  
Old 15.11.2018, 21:33
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. ZŁrich
Posts: 11,616
Groaned at 578 Times in 487 Posts
Thanked 20,883 Times in 10,968 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is South Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

Quote:
Its proponents say it will help unlock economic potential; critics say it could lead to ruin in Africa's most advanced economy.

Now, after months of contentious public hearings across South Africa and scores of parliamentary debates, a parliamentary review committee took the next step in the controversial policy of expropriation of land without compensation by recommending that a constitutional change be enacted.

"South Africans have spoken loud and clear, and we listened to their cry," said Lewis Nzimande, the co-chair of the committee.
Source

Seems despite all the soothing words the politicians are determined that S. Africa will commit economic suicide
Reply With Quote
  #172  
Old 14.07.2021, 20:58
parnell's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Geroldswil
Posts: 642
Groaned at 219 Times in 140 Posts
Thanked 2,165 Times in 1,024 Posts
parnell has a reputation beyond reputeparnell has a reputation beyond reputeparnell has a reputation beyond reputeparnell has a reputation beyond reputeparnell has a reputation beyond reputeparnell has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is South Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

Yes.
Reply With Quote
  #173  
Old 14.07.2021, 21:52
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 3,736
Groaned at 72 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 3,970 Times in 2,141 Posts
rainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is South Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitic...spread-looting

https://www.bbc.com/news/topics/cq23...t/south-africa
Reply With Quote
  #174  
Old 14.07.2021, 22:13
jacek's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Aargau
Posts: 8,855
Groaned at 125 Times in 92 Posts
Thanked 6,571 Times in 3,638 Posts
jacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is South Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

That’s just vandalism that has nothing to do with peaceful political riots for corrupted ex-president who was lately convicted. It’s opportunism, it’s not about hungry people looting shops for food. It’s about criminals benefiting from vulnerable situation. Organized crimes behind it. Damned animals. Military and police should really take a decisive stance against. Use live ammo instead of rubber bullets. Enough is enough.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank jacek for this useful post:
This user groans at jacek for this post:
  #175  
Old 15.07.2021, 08:32
Traubert's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,124
Groaned at 11 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 2,248 Times in 793 Posts
Traubert has a reputation beyond reputeTraubert has a reputation beyond reputeTraubert has a reputation beyond reputeTraubert has a reputation beyond reputeTraubert has a reputation beyond reputeTraubert has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is South Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

Quote:
View Post
That’s just vandalism that has nothing to do with peaceful political riots for corrupted ex-president who was lately convicted. It’s opportunism, it’s not about hungry people looting shops for food. It’s about criminals benefiting from vulnerable situation. Organized crimes behind it. Damned animals. Military and police should really take a decisive stance against. Use live ammo instead of rubber bullets. Enough is enough.
Use live ammo instead of rubber bullets? That's offensive and stupid. Have you got any idea what would happen if they started using live ammunition on people? They, the police and the army have no control and it's a seriously volatile situation which has already tipped. Once a mob moves on something there's nothing anyone can do but let it happen.

Your comments are typical of an armchair analyst who thinks they know the history of how they got there and what the solution is.

It wasn't long ago that BLM sparked riots in the US. Should they have deployed the army and used live ammunition indiscriminately on crowds of people?

It is more than starving people, it's far from organised crime (the ANC and Zuma are the organised part of the crime), it's a complex situation compounded by a history of failure, corruption, disorganisation, inequality and desperation. Top this off with COVID and the world's most stringent lockdown, which has exacerbated the situation.

I'm not sure what your connection is to SA, or what 'enough is enough' means from you, but as someone who grew up there and did military service under the old white nationalist regime, did riot control duty, was given live ammunition and told 'not to hesitate to shoot' i say inform yourself, speak responsibly or STFU.
__________________
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few

Last edited by Traubert; 15.07.2021 at 08:55.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Traubert for this useful post:
  #176  
Old 15.07.2021, 09:20
jacek's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Aargau
Posts: 8,855
Groaned at 125 Times in 92 Posts
Thanked 6,571 Times in 3,638 Posts
jacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is South Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

Quote:
View Post
Use live ammo instead of rubber bullets? That's offensive and stupid. Have you got any idea what would happen if they started using live ammunition on people? They, the police and the army have no control and it's a seriously volatile situation which has already tipped. Once a mob moves on something there's nothing anyone can do but let it happen.

Your comments are typical of an armchair analyst who thinks they know the history of how they got there and what the solution is.

It wasn't long ago that BLM sparked riots in the US. Should they have deployed the army and used live ammunition indiscriminately on crowds of people?

It is more than starving people, it's far from organised crime (the ANC and Zuma are the organised part of the crime), it's a complex situation compounded by a history of failure, corruption, disorganisation, inequality and desperation. Top this off with COVID and the world's most stringent lockdown, which has exacerbated the situation.

I'm not sure what your connection is to SA, or what 'enough is enough' means from you, but as someone who grew up there and did military service under the old white nationalist regime, did riot control duty, was given live ammunition and told 'not to hesitate to shoot' i say inform yourself, speak responsibly or STFU.
This is a nice post and also armchair analyst opinion to do nothing whereas country is burning slowly to the ground. Have you idea what’s going on there or just watch CNN and read the news? There is a freaking civil war ongoing …

I think this explains situation the best. Got it from somebody that I know:

“Name removed” ( “name removed” who does my nails , husband is in the police) sent us horrific videos of what’s going on , I am shattered emotionally, the killing and the devastation is beyond anything I’ve ever seen ! The guys that are blowing up the trucks are blowing themselves up , they using pangas on themselves , the trucks are trying to get thru and they riding the XXXXXXXX over its carnage !!! Messages have gone out that ballito is the only town that is still standing and has food and shops , people from all over are fighting to come to ballito ! The armed guys will only let residents in they are ready to shoot anyone , I don’t think I’ve ever been this scared , no idea what’s going to happen here it’s so sad that this it’s what’s happening!!!!”

Please save your comments and rather find a solution to what is really happening!!!
__________________
🎾That's what we do to help English speaking expats community in Switzerland:
General Information About Swiss Tennis
Tennis Lessons Summer Winter Seasons
🎾🎾Our charity organization to help unprivileged kids to realize their dreams:
FMTF Supports Tennis For Children in Southern Africa

Last edited by fatmanfilms; 16.07.2021 at 17:09. Reason: Offensive word removed
Reply With Quote
  #177  
Old 15.07.2021, 09:29
Traubert's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,124
Groaned at 11 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 2,248 Times in 793 Posts
Traubert has a reputation beyond reputeTraubert has a reputation beyond reputeTraubert has a reputation beyond reputeTraubert has a reputation beyond reputeTraubert has a reputation beyond reputeTraubert has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is South Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

Quote:
View Post
This is a nice post and also armchair analyst opinion to do nothing whereas country is burning slowly to the ground. Have you idea what’s going on there or just watch CNN and read the news? There is a freaking civil war ongoing …

I think this explains situation the best. Got it from somebody that I know:

“Name removed” ( “name removed” who does my nails , husband is in the police) sent us horrific videos of what’s going on , I am shattered emotionally, the killing and the devastation is beyond anything I’ve ever seen ! The guys that are blowing up the trucks are blowing themselves up , they using pangas on themselves , the trucks are trying to get thru and they riding the xxxxxx over its carnage !!! Messages have gone out that ballito is the only town that is still standing and has food and shops , people from all over are fighting to come to ballito ! The armed guys will only let residents in they are ready to shoot anyone , I don’t think I’ve ever been this scared , no idea what’s going to happen here it’s so sad that this it’s what’s happening!!!!”

Please save your comments and rather find a solution to what is really happening!!!
I am South African, my whole family is there, 7 brothers and sisters, parents, nieces, nephews, friends...

Don't deflect from your comments about using live ammunition as a solution. That's not a solution, killing people is never a solution. I've been there, I've done riot duty with live ammunition, it's not so casual as you say.

Last edited by fatmanfilms; 16.07.2021 at 17:27. Reason: Removed word from quote
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Traubert for this useful post:
  #178  
Old 15.07.2021, 09:49
jacek's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Aargau
Posts: 8,855
Groaned at 125 Times in 92 Posts
Thanked 6,571 Times in 3,638 Posts
jacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is South Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

Quote:
View Post
I am South African, my whole family is there, 7 brothers and sisters, parents, nieces, nephews, friends...

Don't deflect from your comments about using live ammunition as a solution. That's not a solution, killing people is never a solution. I've been there, I've done riot duty with live ammunition, it's not so casual as you say.
I’m not suggesting to use live ammo on mob and innocent people. This is misconstrued statement. Of course nobody wants another Marikana massacre. Yet at least 70 people already died. I’m saying that the police and army should be ready to use live ammo instead of rubber bullets against angry criminals who use firearms and pangas. There are many vigilante groups raising in communities to defend what can be saved. Ramaphosa was begged to call for state of emergency. Taxi drivers take law in their own hands and open fire to looters in shopping malls. Sorry for 14 year old boy died in incident.
__________________
🎾That's what we do to help English speaking expats community in Switzerland:
General Information About Swiss Tennis
Tennis Lessons Summer Winter Seasons
🎾🎾Our charity organization to help unprivileged kids to realize their dreams:
FMTF Supports Tennis For Children in Southern Africa

Last edited by jacek; 15.07.2021 at 09:59.
Reply With Quote
  #179  
Old 15.07.2021, 10:08
Traubert's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,124
Groaned at 11 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 2,248 Times in 793 Posts
Traubert has a reputation beyond reputeTraubert has a reputation beyond reputeTraubert has a reputation beyond reputeTraubert has a reputation beyond reputeTraubert has a reputation beyond reputeTraubert has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is South Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

Quote:
View Post
Thatís just vandalism that has nothing to do with peaceful political riots for corrupted ex-president who was lately convicted. Itís opportunism, itís not about hungry people looting shops for food. Itís about criminals benefiting from vulnerable situation. Organized crimes behind it. Damned animals. Military and police should really take a decisive stance against. Use live ammo instead of rubber bullets. Enough is enough.
Nothing to be misconstrued about that statement. If you meant otherwise, say otherwise but don't say I misconstrued your statement.

Quote:
View Post
Iím not suggesting to use live ammo on mob and innocent people. This is misconstrued statement. Of course nobody wants another Marikhana. Yet at least 70 people already died. Iím saying that the police and army should be ready to use live ammo instead of rubber bullets against angry criminals who use firearms and pangas. There are many vigilante groups raising in communities to defend what can be saved. Ramaphosa was begged to call for state of emergency. Taxi drivers take law in their own hands and open fire to looters in shopping malls. Sorry for 14 year old boy died in incident.
So, discriminately use live ammunition indiscriminately?

Feel the pain, feel the trauma, feel the frustration and feel compassion - but don't suggest killing is a solution while we sit here drinking our coffee, eating Gipfeli and playing tennis.

You have an opportunity here to own what you said, or reevaluate it. Don't deflect or imply that your statement was misconstrued. If you stand by the use of killing, that's your stuff, I'm just happy you're not in any position of power.
__________________
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Traubert for this useful post:
This user groans at Traubert for this post:
  #180  
Old 15.07.2021, 10:16
jacek's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Aargau
Posts: 8,855
Groaned at 125 Times in 92 Posts
Thanked 6,571 Times in 3,638 Posts
jacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is South Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

Quote:
View Post
Nothing to be misconstrued about that statement. If you meant otherwise, say otherwise but don't say I misconstrued your statement.



So, discriminately use live ammunition indiscriminately?

Feel the pain, feel the trauma, feel the frustration and feel compassion - but don't suggest killing is a solution while we sit here drinking our coffee, eating Gipfeli and playing tennis.

You have an opportunity here to own what you said, or reevaluate it. Don't deflect or imply that your statement was misconstrued. If you stand by the use of killing, that's your stuff, I'm just happy you're not in any position of power.
I’m hundred percent after using the same means of defense as criminals do in aggravated circumstances. I’m not cherry picking my comments and enjoy drinking coffee as you suggest. On the contrary, I had quite a sleepless night chatting with and consoling members of my family and friends who are stuck without fuel and affected by food shortages. They all think that we are better off in Switzerland at the moment.

There is no such plain simple answer as discriminately or non-discriminately here. Everyone has a right to defend oneself or else become a victim.

Yes my anger and emotions are there for good reasons. I’m glad that I do not have to take such hard decisions and stand on side of the power.
__________________
🎾That's what we do to help English speaking expats community in Switzerland:
General Information About Swiss Tennis
Tennis Lessons Summer Winter Seasons
🎾🎾Our charity organization to help unprivileged kids to realize their dreams:
FMTF Supports Tennis For Children in Southern Africa

Last edited by jacek; 15.07.2021 at 10:47.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Adoption from South Africa - is it possible? egonschiela Family matters/health 5 24.04.2016 04:52
South Africa To Switzerland Jen33 Introductions 19 21.03.2013 19:41
South Africa's Foreign policy - Why is it against freedom ? Pashosh International affairs/politics 34 06.10.2011 22:39
Container to South Africa taylor_rich Leaving Switzerland 0 30.05.2011 18:04
Is Switzerland really better than South Africa then? Frank101 Other/general 13 01.12.2008 08:46


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 13:33.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0