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Old 01.03.2018, 20:30
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Is South Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

White farmers in South Africa will have their property seized under a new law backed by Julius Malema, the revolutionary socialist leader of the country's opposition party."

On Tuesday, the National Assembly of South Africa voted 241-83 in favor of amending the Constitution to allow for the expropriation of land without compensation.

The vote will now be studied by the nation's Constitutional Review Committee which must report back with its recommendation by Aug. 30.

Source

This policy was a disaster for Zimbabwe which in a few years changed from the "bread basket" of Africa to a country that had to import food to survive.

Seems unbelievable they will really do this?

Of course after the farms are gone I assume the Govt. will then turn to seizing hotels, golf courses, rich enclaves??
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Last edited by marton; 01.03.2018 at 20:50.
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Old 01.03.2018, 21:38
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Re: Is S. Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

I'd say Civil war is not to be avoided, this is just the next step leading towards it. The landowners and their communities have been arming and training themselves for over a decent amount of time now and will not give away their ground easily.

Jacob Zuma Singing "Shoot the Farmer, Kill the Boer" years ago, and the fact that for years already farmers are 4 times more likely to be murdered compared to the entire African average and widespread racism and openly expressed intense hatred up to the highest levels of politicians show us that it is not a question if Civil war will happen, but the only question is when will it happen.
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Old 01.03.2018, 22:13
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Re: Is S. Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

Difference with Zimbabwe is also that there are 4,5 Million whites (from European Descent) in South Africa whereas Zimbabwe never had more than 300.000 a number which already had fallen down when Mugabe came in power and currently there are only about 25.000 whites in Zimbabwe, so they never could have made a real fist, the Whites in South Africa are large and strong enough to give the government and its supporters a real war for a long time to come if needed.
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Old 02.03.2018, 06:25
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Re: Is S. Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

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I'd say Civil war is not to be avoided, this is just the next step leading towards it. The landowners and their communities have been arming and training themselves for over a decent amount of time now and will not give away their ground easily.

Jacob Zuma Singing "Shoot the Farmer, Kill the Boer" years ago, and the fact that for years already farmers are 4 times more likely to be murdered compared to the entire African average and widespread racism and openly expressed intense hatred up to the highest levels of politicians show us that it is not a question if Civil war will happen, but the only question is when will it happen.
I can almost hear the "told you so" of certain citizens raving about how right they were, that the country should have stayed with apardheit and that the "blecks" should never have gotten into power.
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Old 02.03.2018, 07:44
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Re: Is S. Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

It's a crazy policy. Even Zimbabwe has seen the error or it's ways as it looks to give white farmers their land back.

https://www.news24.com/Africa/Zimbab...eport-20180302
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Old 02.03.2018, 07:57
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Re: Is S. Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

Africans gonna African.
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Old 02.03.2018, 10:01
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Re: Is S. Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

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Africans gonna African.
Constructive contribution there!
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Old 02.03.2018, 08:02
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Re: Is S. Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

Reading on, this is just a review Section 25 of the Constitution which concerns the right of property ownership. Ramaphosa has said people should not worry. He could be right and he doesn't want this to happen. It would severely damage the banks who are needed to help the economy as well as the government itself who has lent money to buy farms.

https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/N...-drum-20180301
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Old 02.03.2018, 09:33
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Re: Is S. Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

Let them watch too much Black Panther and destroy their country for fun.
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Old 02.03.2018, 21:05
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Re: Is S. Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

The likes of Malema or cANCer would be barking up the wrong tree if they thought seizing farmland is going to achieve anything positive.

Firstly, the modern trend is urbanisation, the masses (voters) are moving to the cities and are not interested in farming. They want to be involved in businesses.

https://www.news24.com/Columnists/Gu...erent-20180301

Secondly, farming in Southern Africa is in most cases very hard work and without substantial support (subsidisation from Govt) unlikely to be a viable long term option.

https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/arti.../#.Wpmm70xFwyM

The effects of Black Economic Empowerment (or whatever they call it now) on business / economy has as much if not more negative potential than the expropriation of land.

Problem is, expropriation of land makes headlines whereas BEE does not.
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Old 03.03.2018, 00:20
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Re: Is S. Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

Even in Germany, it often turned out to be the best to return Eastern German farms to their pre-WW2 owners, after the re-unification.
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Old 03.03.2018, 02:32
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Re: Is S. Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

Here is South Africa's new president Cyril Ramaphosa delivering his first SONA (State of the Nation Address), on 16 February 2018.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VqlUOctT8c

Here is the transcript of this address: http://www.thepresidency.gov.za/spee...yril-ramaphosa
Extract, with regard to agriculture and land:
"Agriculture presents one of the greatest opportunities to significantly grow our economy and create jobs.

Agriculture made the largest contribution, by a significant margin, to the improved growth of our economy in the second and third quarters of 2017.

This year, we will take decisive action to realise the enormous economic potential of agriculture.

We will accelerate our land redistribution programme not only to redress a grave historical injustice, but also to bring more producers into the agricultural sector and to make more land available for cultivation.

We will pursue a comprehensive approach that makes effective use of all the mechanisms at our disposal.

Guided by the resolutions of the 54th National Conference of the governing party, this approach will include the expropriation of land without compensation.

We are determined that expropriation without compensation should be implemented in a way that increases agricultural production, improves food security and ensure that the land is returned to those from whom it was taken under colonialism and apartheid.

Government will undertake a process of consultation to determine the modalities of the implementation of this resolution.

We make a special call to financial institutions to be our partners in mobilising resources to accelerate the land redistribution programme as increased investment will be needed in this sector."



After the ensuing debate about, amongst other things, the issue of land, this was Ramaphosa's Reply of 20 February 2018:
http://www.thepresidency.gov.za/spee...nation-address

Extract, with regard to land:
"The expropriation of land without compensation is envisaged as one of the measures that we will use to accelerate the redistribution of land to black South Africans.

We will need to determine, collectively, how we can implement this measure in a way that promotes agricultural production, improves food security, advances rural development, reduces poverty and strengthens our economy.

For it to serve this purpose, we will need to locate this measure within a broad and comprehensive land redistribution and agricultural development programme.

This is a profound responsibility that has been given to our generation.

We owe it to our ancestors and to our children to ensure that we fulfil it.

In dealing with this complex matter, we will not make the mistakes that others have made.

We will not allow smash and grab interventions.

We will handle this matter in the same way we have handled all difficult issues our country has had to handle.

We will always seek to do what is in the interests of our people.

This includes, Honourable Buthelezi, how we will handle the Ingonyama Trust issue.

No-one is saying that land must be taken away from our people.

Rather it is how can we make sure that our people have equitable access to land and security of tenure.

We must see this process of accelerated land redistribution as an opportunity and not as a threat.

We must see it as an opportunity to free all of us from the bitterness and pain of the past."

Last edited by doropfiz; 03.03.2018 at 02:49.
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Old 04.03.2018, 15:13
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Re: Is S. Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

Some time ago there was this thread on someone who had something stolen from him/her. The goods were sold forward, and the question arose whether the buyer (or someone further down the line) could ever be legal owner and possessor, or not.

Under British law the answer is No, under Swiss law the answer is Yes. The clear majority on here (of those who posted) posted the opinion that the Swiss approach is ridiculous and the British approach is just.

Conquest is robbery of the gravest kind. Consequentially the British under British law (and perhaps the Boeres under consistent Dutch law, dunno) never were and never will be the rightful owners of the land. This is now getting corrected, justice is about to be done according to those who posted that the answer above is No.

Be careful what you wish for. Be very careful.

Last edited by Urs Max; 04.03.2018 at 15:24.
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Old 04.03.2018, 17:29
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Re: Is S. Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

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Conquest is robbery of the gravest kind. Consequentially the British under British law (and perhaps the Boeres under consistent Dutch law, dunno) never were and never will be the rightful owners of the land. This is now getting corrected, justice is about to be done according to those who posted that the answer above is No.
Just for your info:

Dutch law sort of equals Swiss law.

When a good is gained under good faith it can not just be taken away and be given to the original owner. For example if I pay a normal price for a second handed stolen bike in a bike store so there is no reason for me to doubt the legality of the seller to be allowed to commit the transaction I gain lawful possession of the bike and the bike will be mine.

Also there is a timeframe during which an item can be claimed regardless of how the current owner got it. (Even valid for if the current owner is the thief itself), So even if I stole the bike myself and had if for (just an example) 30 years it is legally mine.

As for grounds, If I start using your garden and put a fence around it and use it for 20 years and you do not reclaim it as being yours it will legally be my garden.

Given the time they had these farms and the grounds these are rightfully theirs under Dutch laws. And if it was illegal under South-African law they did not have to make new laws to retrieve possession but could just use current laws to do such.
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Old 05.03.2018, 08:31
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Re: Is S. Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

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Even in Germany, it often turned out to be the best to return Eastern German farms to their pre-WW2 owners, after the re-unification.
The experience in Zimbabwe was that turning over the farms to local people destroyed the farms as highly productive units and consequently destroyed the economy.

It was different in Germany as their pre-WW2 owners were farmers.
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Old 05.03.2018, 08:43
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Re: Is S. Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

Interesting article in News24. And goes to the route of the issue.

https://www.news24.com/Columnists/Gu...berty-20180305
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Old 05.03.2018, 10:13
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Re: Is S. Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

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Even in Germany, it often turned out to be the best to return Eastern German farms to their pre-WW2 owners, after the re-unification.
Thats not the plan here. At all. The plan is to promise the poor masses to get rich by taking property and redistribute it.

1. In Zimbabwe it failed because farming isn't trivial. You cannot just go and give some slum guy a shovel, a patch and expect him to live successfully on his own crops. It takes a bit more education than that.

2. Farms are a highly political topic in SA. The ones producing food and grapes for export products still got water at the time the poor population suffered. If I was one of the people told to now shower anymore to save water but at the same time see how the little water left is distributed to some grape patches would I be very open to this sort of populism.
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Old 05.03.2018, 10:47
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Re: Is S. Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

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Thats not the plan here. At all. The plan is to promise the poor masses to get rich by taking property and redistribute it.

1. In Zimbabwe it failed because farming isn't trivial. You cannot just go and give some slum guy a shovel, a patch and expect him to live successfully on his own crops. It takes a bit more education than that.

2. Farms are a highly political topic in SA. The ones producing food and grapes for export products still got water at the time the poor population suffered. If I was one of the people told to now shower anymore to save water but at the same time see how the little water left is distributed to some grape patches would I be very open to this sort of populism.
"The plan is to promise the poor masses to get rich by taking property and redistribute it." But, of course that is an impossible promise. You spread the property over 40 million people and they will not get rich, in fact, each of them will get very little.
But owning property does not make you rich, selling property makes you rich and who will buy property when the Govt. seizes property without compensation?

Then, of course, you have the problem of do you share the property over all the black people or just to the Ethnic groups who were there in 1652 when the first white men arrived?
Many black people are descendants of slaves who were brought in from other parts of Africa or or descendants of immigrants who were escaping tribal conflicts or simply hoped to improve their lives so are they equally deserving of a share of the property or not?

As an example, there are 144 thousand square Km farm land in South Africa. Share that out between 40 million people and they get 360 sq metres each!

Top price for first class farmland in SA is 5 Rand per sqm, say CHF 150 for each person. That is assuming they could sell the plots?
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Old 05.03.2018, 12:09
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Re: Is S. Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

Whatever happens, I hope they don't stop making wine.
Hm, it might be a good idea to stock up, actually
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Old 05.03.2018, 14:42
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Re: Is S. Africa planning to follow Zimbabwe and destroy its economy?

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Top price for first class farmland in SA is 5 Rand per sqm, say CHF 150 for each person. That is assuming they could sell the plots?
I did not say it makes any sense, I just don't agree that the situation is in any way comparable to the - at times successful - landownership changes in Eastern Germany. It's not about giving anything back to anyone. Its about redistribution of wealth. Done with a big stick... and that has never worked. Neither in Africa or elsewhere...
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