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  #261  
Old 19.03.2018, 15:02
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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What about it? To the best of my knowledge, after 4 years, investigation is still ongoing, and Russians were banned from it. Yet another secret.
You clearly know very little. https://www.government.nl/topics/mh17-incident

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An attempt to prosecute the suspects through a UN tribunal, was vetoed on July 2 2015 by Russia in the UN Security Council. On 5 July 2017, the Dutch government announced that the suspects will be tried in the Netherlands by a Dutch court.
https://www.rechtspraak.nl/Uitsprake...-disaster.aspx

Now you have the choice. You can either learn more, or choose to maintain your ignorance of the issues.
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  #262  
Old 19.03.2018, 15:07
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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He made the calculation, and, as you see now, his calculations were correct.
Doesn't it surprise you that Putin, Press and Reality have the same results? Do you believe in magic? In conspiracy? In Gulag rules? ))
Amazing how accurate that prediction was!

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He is the first president in many decades who cares about the country and people more than about his own power. Power is not his objective, it's a side effect. Try once some other source than your "free press". Talk to people, not to the blue screen ))
He cares about his power first, then his friends, then he claims to care about the average Russian, but the average Russian does not live in Moscow or St Petersburg. Of course he has elevated the average wealth of a post Soviet Russian, but giving people a few luxeries after the misery of communist Russia was a relatively simple way to make people feel good. There is still no freedom of press, no room for critics, no possible equal political champion to Putin.

Why's that?

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Why's that?
Besides, he has more friends than enemies (remember, West is not the only piece of world), and this split increases with time.
I don't deny you this at all. Putin is admired by a lot of countries that wish to do business with him, especially weapons and energy, those countries are themselves somewhat lacking in the democracy departments.


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So why you choose to read what Mrs. May says, and not what Mr. Corbyn does?
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...burys-novichok
I have, I am not a great fan of Corbyn, as he is a ditherer and not a strong leader. He is right, generally that we shouldn't jump to conclusions but I feel in this instance he is wrong. I also know that the government under May is also wrong for having made any assumptions of Russian guilt public before having enough evidence to hand. Not least because that was the exact political move that Putin wanted to happen.
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  #263  
Old 19.03.2018, 15:35
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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There are thousands Russian, Chinese, Indian and American hackers penetrating systems left and right across the globe every day. Did I deny this?
No, the claim was "No Russian hackers affecting the results of US elections". Apologies for making it too complicated.
Resorting to denying your own posts now!

Your claim was "How many remember today that US officially admitted that there were no "Russian hackers""
Not "No Russian hackers affecting the results of US elections"
Which would be an entirely different discussion

In case your memory is failing I attach a picture of your original post.

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Dear EF Colleagues, I see no future in debating with someone who denies what they posted!
Sad I wasted my time on this.
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  #264  
Old 19.03.2018, 15:42
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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You clearly know very little. https://www.government.nl/topics/mh17-incident

https://www.rechtspraak.nl/Uitsprake...-disaster.aspx

Now you have the choice. You can either learn more, or choose to maintain your ignorance of the issues.
Cool. I could not even find who these "suspects" are. Are they afraid to name them? And this was in June 2017, what changed since?
"Suspects" is a term of a running investigation. When investigation is finished, suspects turn into defendants.
Exactly like I said - they just slowly reduce the noise level, till everyone forgets the story.

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Dear EF Colleagues, I see no future in debating with someone who denies what they posted!
Sad I wasted my time on this.
Oh please don't go, I'll make my posts crystal clear for you!
No Russian hackers affected US elections.
Anything else to elaborate?
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  #265  
Old 19.03.2018, 16:13
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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Amazing how accurate that prediction was!
Nothing amazing if you make just one assumption: it was a real unbiased calculation. Just math. 2x2=4

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He cares about his power first, then his friends, then he claims to care about the average Russian, but the average Russian does not live in Moscow or St Petersburg. Of course he has elevated the average wealth of a post Soviet Russian, but giving people a few luxeries after the misery of communist Russia was a relatively simple way to make people feel good. There is still no freedom of press, no room for critics, no possible equal political champion to Putin.
I think we discussed it already, and you haven't answered my questions.
Who exactly was imprisoned, what media was banned, what parties were denied access to presidential elections?
How does life in Moscow and St.Petersbourg differ from Ekaterinburg and Vladivostok? How does an average Moscovite differ from average Sotchi or Vladivostok people? What's the income/expense difference between Moscow and Tumen?
Can you get all these details in Western media? No? Why?
And most important: What is the basis of your conclusions?

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I don't deny you this at all. Putin is admired by a lot of countries that wish to do business with him, especially weapons and energy, those countries are themselves somewhat lacking in the democracy departments.
What these counties are lacking is safety. That's why they want to be friends with Putin. They know that Russia "never started the wars, but always finished them"

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I have, I am not a great fan of Corbyn, as he is a ditherer and not a strong leader. He is right, generally that we shouldn't jump to conclusions but I feel in this instance he is wrong.
In what sense, exactly?

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I also know that the government under May is also wrong for having made any assumptions of Russian guilt public before having enough evidence to hand. Not least because that was the exact political move that Putin wanted to happen.
Ah, yes, there are now rumors that Mrs. May is a Putin's agent, too..
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  #266  
Old 19.03.2018, 16:19
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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Cool. I could not even find who these "suspects" are. Are they afraid to name them? And this was in June 2017, what changed since?
"Suspects" is a term of a running investigation. When investigation is finished, suspects turn into defendants.
Exactly like I said - they just slowly reduce the noise level, till everyone forgets the story.



Oh please don't go, I'll make my posts crystal clear for you!
No Russian hackers affected US elections.
Anything else to elaborate?
Good to see that you have totally abandoned your claim "US officially admitted that there were no "Russian hackers"".

I forecast you will abandon many more of your claims
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  #267  
Old 19.03.2018, 16:35
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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"as one reads on, it becomes "hot thriller" with wealthy Chechens and other Russian exotics" farcical! How can we read on if you do not provide the links?

I will give you some free advice; if you want to add credibility to your points then make relevant quotes or provide relevant links.
Sorry to interfere but the links within the document Blueangel linked (within this one) are broken. Error 404 or "sorry this page can't be found" on several of them - I didn't check them all.
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  #268  
Old 19.03.2018, 16:40
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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Nothing amazing if you make just one assumption: it was a real unbiased calculation. Just math. 2x2=4


I think we discussed it already, and you haven't answered my questions.
Who exactly was imprisoned, what media was banned, what parties were denied access to presidential elections?
How does life in Moscow and St.Petersbourg differ from Ekaterinburg and Vladivostok? How does an average Moscovite differ from average Sotchi or Vladivostok people? What's the income/expense difference between Moscow and Tumen?
Can you get all these details in Western media? No? Why?
And most important: What is the basis of your conclusions?


What these counties are lacking is safety. That's why they want to be friends with Putin. They know that Russia "never started the wars, but always finished them"


In what sense, exactly?


Ah, yes, there are now rumors that Mrs. May is a Putin's agent, too..
Oooooh! So this is why you were here for then...
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  #269  
Old 19.03.2018, 16:54
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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Sorry to interfere but the links within the document Blueangel linked (within this one) are broken. Error 404 or "sorry this page can't be found" on several of them - I didn't check them all.
Sorry Curley, but they all work in my Firefox browser. The full inquiry report can also be found here... www.litvinenkoinquiry.org ...but be warned, it's over 300 pages long.

The links I've given are the the UK inquiry about Litvinenko, and the Dutch government's inquiry into the downing of flight MH17. All this information is freely available in the public domain without having to resort to any news agencies to bolster the stories. As arz has failed to come back with anything concrete or of any substance to refute these findings, I can only come to the conclusiuon that he's talking out if his.
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  #270  
Old 19.03.2018, 17:09
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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Sorry to interfere but the links within the document Blueangel linked (within this one) are broken. Error 404 or "sorry this page can't be found" on several of them - I didn't check them all.
Does not matter any more.

arz has abandoned his claim that "US officially admitted that there were no "Russian hackers"".

He also needs to abandon his claim "If you google for "Lugovoi official charge", you get only Wiki, NYT, CNN, Telegraph and BBC articles with no hyperlinks to official dokuments.
Both Blueangel and I provided these links.

It is clear from arz grammar and spelling that he is not a native English speaker, probably someone smarter than me could narrow down his origins.
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  #271  
Old 19.03.2018, 17:31
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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Sorry Curley, but they all work in my Firefox browser. The full inquiry report can also be found here... www.litvinenkoinquiry.org ...but be warned, it's over 300 pages long.

The links I've given are the the UK inquiry about Litvinenko, and the Dutch government's inquiry into the downing of flight MH17. All this information is freely available in the public domain without having to resort to any news agencies to bolster the stories. As arz has failed to come back with anything concrete or of any substance to refute these findings, I can only come to the conclusiuon that he's talking out if his.
The links you posted do. The links within your linked article do not work in my firefox browser. And I believe those are what arz referred to.

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Does not matter any more.

arz has abandoned his claim that "US officially admitted that there were no "Russian hackers"".

He also needs to abandon his claim "If you google for "Lugovoi official charge", you get only Wiki, NYT, CNN, Telegraph and BBC articles with no hyperlinks to official dokuments.
Both Blueangel and I provided these links.

It is clear from arz grammar and spelling that he is not a native English speaker, probably someone smarter than me could narrow down his origins.
In my opinion it doesn't matter in the slightest whether arz's mother-tongue is English or not. In fact, if the person is Russian he/she has every right to join this thread, no?! But also if he/she has any other nationality.

I also think this discussion wouldn't be half as interesting without arz. What's the point in a discussion if everybody agrees?

I've not been on this thread for a few days so I could just catch up and I'm not taking "sides". Yet as I mentioned somewhere at the beginning, I believe in "innocent until proven guilty" for anybody, even people who have given us reason in the past to jump to conclusions now. And the Brits are accusing so they have to come up with the proof. It happened on their soil, they must investigate (not guess, investigate) and find the culprit.

And I can't get the "how will this help the anti-brexit people?" thought off my mind.
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  #272  
Old 19.03.2018, 17:42
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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The links you posted do. The links within your linked article do not work in my firefox browser. And I believe those are what arz referred to.


In my opinion it doesn't matter in the slightest whether arz's mother-tongue is English or not. In fact, if the person is Russian he/she has every right to join this thread, no?! But also if he/she has any other nationality.

I also think this discussion wouldn't be half as interesting without arz. What's the point in a discussion if everybody agrees?

I've not been on this thread for a few days so I could just catch up and I'm not taking "sides". Yet as I mentioned somewhere at the beginning, I believe in "innocent until proven guilty" for anybody, even people who have given us reason in the past to jump to conclusions now. And the Brits are accusing so they have to come up with the proof. It happened on their soil, they must investigate (not guess, investigate) and find the culprit.

And I can't get the "how will this help the anti-brexit people?" thought off my mind.
"In my opinion it doesn't matter in the slightest whether arz's mother-tongue is English or not"

arz is claiming his post that "US officially admitted that there were no "Russian hackers"" is the same as his post "No Russian hackers affected US elections."

I was taking the charitable view that this was simply a failure in his understanding of English but if you think he is trolling then do say so
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  #273  
Old 19.03.2018, 18:02
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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"In my opinion it doesn't matter in the slightest whether arz's mother-tongue is English or not"

arz is claiming his post that "US officially admitted that there were no "Russian hackers"" is the same as his post "No Russian hackers affected US elections."

I was taking the charitable view that this was simply a failure in his understanding of English but if you think he is trolling then do say so
I do not say he's trolling. Don't put words into my mouth!

I have no idea why you keep banging on about those two sentences. You are normally a lot more generous, even with people who do not argue their opinions as politely as arz.
No offense but I think the subject is interesting enough not to waste it on "you said", "no I didn't", "yes you did". So one of the two statements of arz was not what he meant. Happens within lively discussions, no? Never, ever happened to you?

Is this about one side being right or is it about getting as much input from all kinds of sides to be able to build an opinion of one's own? To me it's the latter.
And nobody will be "right" until the incident is thoroughly investigated and closed. Which may be never
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  #274  
Old 19.03.2018, 19:34
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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I also think this discussion wouldn't be half as interesting without arz. What's the point in a discussion if everybody agrees?
I get where you're coming from, and I'm all for a decent discussion, but conspiracy theorists? Sorry. I've always found fact to be far stranger than fiction. Material has been posted in this thread that is currently banned on facebook, twitter and youtube.

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I've not been on this thread for a few days so I could just catch up and I'm not taking "sides". Yet as I mentioned somewhere at the beginning, I believe in "innocent until proven guilty" for anybody, even people who have given us reason in the past to jump to conclusions now. And the Brits are accusing so they have to come up with the proof. It happened on their soil, they must investigate (not guess, investigate) and find the culprit.

And I can't get the "how will this help the anti-brexit people?" thought off my mind.
First off, 'innocent until proven guilty' is a corner stone of civil law. Even in the UK armed forces, it's 'guilty until proven innocent' (though that may have changed in the last couple of years.)

I'm not taking sides so to speak. A chemical weapon has been used in peace time against a civillian target. I couldn't care less whether it happened in the UK, Russia, China, Switzerland, Slovakia, etc... It's an act against a whole host in international laws, treaties and conventions. Most nations would immediately deem it to be an act of war and some may have responded with force by now.

Personally (not that it has any weight in the discussion) I don't approve of how May has handled this, I approve even less of how Corbyn has handled it, and even less than that for Boris Johnson's careless, incendiary words.

Lastly, Russia being blamed does nothing whatsoever to help us anti-Brexit people. If anything, it will expose weaknesses and reasons for the UK to maintain closer ties with the EU in certain operational areas, regardles of who the culprit may be.

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And nobody will be "right" until the incident is thoroughly investigated and closed. Which may be never
The proof everyone wants is being sought as we speak, as a sample of the nerve agent has already been passed to the OPCW for examination.

Personally speaking, this isn't a matter of 'being right'. I find it grossly offensive that anyone should under play the act that has taken place. All the circumstantial evidence points towards Russian forces involvement. In a criminal court, there's enough evidence to probably secure a conviction. We're so accustomed to DNA evidence, etc, that we often forget that most of a case is built upon circumstantial. Russia has every opportunity to defend itself, and has been asked to do so. To date, they have chosen to respond with ridicule.
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  #275  
Old 19.03.2018, 20:27
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

Sometimes people come on here & make wild statements without any foundation. OK, it is an Internet forum, why not!

I find it grossly offensive when they are called out on their false statements they claim they said something totally different.

It is not a question of "being right", it is about discouraging trolling and trying to maintain some sort of a quality discussion here.
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  #276  
Old 19.03.2018, 21:13
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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I get where you're coming from, and I'm all for a decent discussion, but conspiracy theorists? Sorry. I've always found fact to be far stranger than fiction.
Let's say it was the Russian governement ..... or even a Russian group/organization. That is not conspiracy?

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Material has been posted in this thread that is currently banned on facebook, twitter and youtube.
TIS. No banning. Freedom of thought and speech. I love it. And will always defend it (even though some weirdows are hard to bear, LOL).

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First off, 'innocent until proven guilty' is a corner stone of civil law. Even in the UK armed forces, it's 'guilty until proven innocent' (though that may have changed in the last couple of years.)

I'm not taking sides so to speak. A chemical weapon has been used in peace time against a civillian target. I couldn't care less whether it happened in the UK, Russia, China, Switzerland, Slovakia, etc... It's an act against a whole host in international laws, treaties and conventions. Most nations would immediately deem it to be an act of war and some may have responded with force by now.
Immediately to war with whom? Russia?
Then maybe ooops later? Let's say it was not ordered by Putin (as Michail Chodorkowski suggested could be possible in that interview which was linked further up) - fight a country because some citizens of it gone viral commited a crime?

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Lastly, Russia being blamed does nothing whatsoever to help us anti-Brexit people. If anything, it will expose weaknesses and reasons for the UK to maintain closer ties with the EU in certain operational areas, regardles of who the culprit may be.
"Ebbe" as the Swiss says.
What would that be in English ..... exactly?

The constitutional states agree on all these wonderful laws, fill fat books with them but when they are supposed to come into use ...... nothing but sabre-rattling, demands to shoot first, ask later. This is just as scary. But admittingly kind of fascinating

So maybe Russia and GB should meet in Geneva? We've had worse hotheads meeting there.
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  #277  
Old 19.03.2018, 22:27
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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Let's say it was the Russian governement ..... or even a Russian group/organization. That is not conspiracy?
Conspiracy theorists twist or deny facts to suit some bizarre agenda of their own. We have one in our family If he said the sky was blue, I'd check, yet people still pay good money to go and listen to David Icke.

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Immediately to war with whom? Russia?
Then maybe ooops later? Let's say it was not ordered by Putin (as Michail Chodorkowski suggested could be possible in that interview which was linked further up) - fight a country because some citizens of it gone viral commited a crime?
Some countries would go to war with whoever they deemed to be the enemy that used a chemical weapon in their country, yes.

It would take a lot more than some rogue citizens to create and use this particular weapon. Sarin and ricin can be made in a bath tub, but this isn't sarin or ricin. It the OPCW varify the initial assesment that it is Novichok, then it requires a substantial lab facility with millions of dollars available.

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"Ebbe" as the Swiss says.
What would that be in English ..... exactly?
I found this... Ebbe is used mostly to put emphasis on things, when you really want to say that you agree you go 'EBBE', usually loud.

Does that sound right to you?

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So maybe Russia and GB should meet in Geneva? We've had worse hotheads meeting there.
It would be preferable, but probably a waste of everyone's time, and possibly inappropriate under the circumstances. The UK isn't going to war with Russia. That won't happen. But if all the evidence to come still points the finger squarely at Russia, and they still refuse to conduct an open investigation into how this event came to happen, then how long can we tolerate Russia having a seat on the UN security council when they continue to act with total impunity?

The company I used to work for had 27 clients on MH17 including a family of 4. To date, nobody has faced criminal charges for shooting that plane out of the sky with a Russian made missile.
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Old 19.03.2018, 23:00
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

Just to give a little balance on how this is being reported on UK tv, with the former Kremlin advisor, Alexander Nekrassov, appearing on almost every news programme that will have him. I'm not sure he's doing Russia any favours, but he certainly appears to be making the most of any offers of air time that are coming his way, and good on him!

What I'm trying to say is that this is not being narrowly reported. Facts are relatively thin in the ground at the moment and the physical side of the investigation has received lots of criticism so far. There was a week long delay in the ambulance used being impounded, and only today, the daughter's hire car was taken for testing. This should all have happened far sooner in the investigation. I'm just waiting on the OPCW report.





Alexander Nekrassov at 7mins in ...

Last edited by Blueangel; 20.03.2018 at 00:45.
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Old 19.03.2018, 23:02
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

Ebbe = isn't it

"isn't it" is very commonly used in conversation in Wales (the country).
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Old 20.03.2018, 00:44
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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Conspiracy theorists twist or deny facts to suit some bizarre agenda of their own. We have one in our family If he said the sky was blue, I'd check, yet people still pay good money to go and listen to David Icke.
Never heard of the guy. I'm not into conspiracy theories much but my eyes are not blue enough to think there is no such thing.
So far only the British side has really talked about this case so we can't blame Russia to have twisted or denied any facts. Or did I miss something?

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Some countries would go to war with whoever they deemed to be the enemy that used a chemical weapon in their country, yes.

It would take a lot more than some rogue citizens to create and use this particular weapon. Sarin and ricin can be made in a bath tub, but this isn't sarin or ricin. It the OPCW varify the initial assesment that it is Novichok, then it requires a substantial lab facility with millions of dollars available.
Yes what? Go to war with Russia and risk it's for the wrong reasons?
I was not thinking about some rogue criminals, more about some organisations having gone astray.

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I found this... Ebbe is used mostly to put emphasis on things, when you really want to say that you agree you go 'EBBE', usually loud.
Ebbe is something one says when having stated something and then the other one says something that actually confirms/supports/goes in the same direction.
It doesn't need to be said loud. In fact, I usually say it very quietly but clearly


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It would be preferable, but probably a waste of everyone's time, and possibly inappropriate under the circumstances. The UK isn't going to war with Russia. That won't happen. But if all the evidence to come still points the finger squarely at Russia, and they still refuse to conduct an open investigation into how this event came to happen, then how long can we tolerate Russia having a seat on the UN security council when they continue to act with total impunity?
I will not be totally surprised if Russia turns out to be guilty. I'm simply not willing to say they are as long as the case is still so unclear.
And yes, should this be the result of serious investigations and Putin either ordered it or is not prosecuting the culprits, I too think Russia should be isolated in all possible ways.

What I think is shocking is that this happens repeatedly. In Britain! It has to stop! And it will not stop because who ever keeps doing this - or copies who did it the first time - is gonna give it up. Britain has to find out how this is organized, how the stuff gets into the country (if it comes from outside) etc. etc.
If anything similar happened here I would expect my governement to get to the bottom of it all and take the necessary precautions in future.

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Ebbe = isn't it

"isn't it" is very commonly used in conversation in Wales (the country).
No it isn't at all.
isn't it is "oder" in Swiss-German.

It's difficult to translate. If I used it while speaking English I would probably use something like "exactly", "that's what I'm saying", "riiiight" (no not loud, quietly ).
Once one gets the true meaning of "ebbe" s/he integrates it into the English language - like my ex-husband did, he used it a lot and always correctly

Sometimes it can also lead to laughing together because two people bicker about something, saying the same thing basically.
Ebbe is not an unpolite or harsh thing to say at all.
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