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  #321  
Old 22.03.2018, 13:56
arz arz is offline
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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...which brought up exact matches across a number of pro-Russian websites and blogs. So it's a classic piece of plagiarism that's found it's way across numerous 'sources'. Simple.
So you are essentially saying that BBC, RT and OPCW are at the same level of credibility, and only what Theresa May says can be true?
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  #322  
Old 22.03.2018, 14:01
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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Novichock agents are usually binary - i.e. there are two (inactive, stable and relatively harmless) ingredients which need to be combined to create the toxin. The chemical reaction takes several minutes to then occur (longer in cold weather) to create the toxin.

You could quite safely pour each one into the cabin filter. Now whether you have enough time or not to safely close the filter and reassemble everything is another story.

I would assume that embedding both components in a dissolving matrix (dry ice?) that leaves very little residue would be feasible...
You have to mix them at the correct concentrations, just pouring the two components into the same container achieves nothing.
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  #323  
Old 22.03.2018, 14:07
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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Source: Russian OPCW representative, TV interview was in Russian.
Which leads me to question, are you fluent in Russian or did you get this information from a transcript? Might we also see that transcript?

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So you are essentially saying that BBC, RT and OPCW are at the same level of credibility, and only what Theresa May says can be true?
Wow! Such a huge mental leap. Why would I have implicit trust in the words of someone who I despise?
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  #324  
Old 22.03.2018, 14:46
arz arz is offline
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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Which leads me to question, are you fluent in Russian or did you get this information from a transcript? Might we also see that transcript?
Yes, I am fluent in Russian, but it's quite unlikely that all interviews to Russan TV are transcripted and translated.

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Wow! Such a huge mental leap. Why would I have implicit trust in the words of someone who I despise?
What's wrong with my logic? You don't trust "sources", OPCW is among them, who else can we trust? Putin or May. Or I forgot someone?
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  #325  
Old 22.03.2018, 15:29
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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I neither require nor desire respect from you.

I merely scanned over #300. When a piece of prose is so difficult to read because it feels like 4 people talking over each other, then chances are that it is. Next step is to scan for anything particularly stylised, in this case 'WMD#2' leapt off the page, so I did a quick cut and paste google search for ...

'Will the media continue to help Theresa maintain her crumbling narrative? Are we watching WMD#2 with added depths of cynicism?'
Uhm, excuse me, but the only thing you managed to do was verify words in my post. And that’s great! My intention is “not” to write in a way where the words origins are no longer recognizable. It’s just as wrong to “take” copy from a source to recreate it as your own. We use clichés and popular phrases constantly without acknowledgement. Yet, this too is a direct form of plagiarism. I don’t change facts and truth, it’s obvious that anyone can check if they so desire (I’m not naive to that probability). I expect it...no problem. Constantly citing sources as if in some way it makes your words credible and true does not make them so, which has been happening on this thread. People are writing posts that require no more skills than a 10 year old and citing sources to “add weight to an otherwise feeble and juvenile post.” Sometimes I cite sources, sometimes I don’t. If you have any questions, well, do your research! I have no issue at all with that. I’m not simply making sh*t up….that’s for sure. I’m meticulous about research and make it my business to check “all” sides. I don’t have to impress ANYONE on this thread or this site...and don’t try to either.

Opinions are not difficult to write in an original format. Not so much for detailed facts. Now, the crucial factor here is “is it true” regardless of who wrote it. Seeking the truth and not “just what you want to hear” should be the motive, which you appear to have a problem with. Unfortunately (for you anyway), you have an unhealthy need for recognition, to remain in delusion at all cost, and have not an inch of critical thinking or objectivity, which is quite immature for a so-called adult. Petty comes to mind….Get Help! The Russia-did-it fiasco that UK is “creating” is nothing but a cover-up for more sinister motives. It’s obvious to “those in the know.” It’s Russia mania and everything is blamed on Russia. Let them tell it Russia can control the weather and Putin can walk on water! They tried to blame Russia for Brexit, the Germany was saying at one time that Russia interfered with their elections, then Italy, now Sweden is carrying out some type of exercise preparing for a Russian attack...LOL I guess they’ll build a wall with Ikea furniture! They are putting us all in danger because of their stupidity….period! Yet, I still find it amazing how many cannot see through the stupidity of this entire charade! This shows that many people have no idea of the comings-and-goings of world politics and will be unprepared for the BIG changes on the horizon. If you’ve been keeping-up you can spot the game immediately. It’s the usual routine i.e. “False Flags.” In fact, I wish they would “stop it” and focus on crucial matters which they are continuously trying to avoid. No one...and I mean...no one...no institution, organization, no person, no politician or authority is going to tell me who I should view as an enemy and who I should trust. I will decide that...and I have decided that they are full of sh*t on the Russia matter. Anyway, I’m NOT going to go back-and-forth with you about this. I have to go make sure my doors are locked or the Russians might get me!!!! I wish you all the best….Good Bye!

Last edited by ProsperityJoy; 22.03.2018 at 17:21.
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  #326  
Old 22.03.2018, 16:40
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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Yes, I am fluent in Russian, but it's quite unlikely that all interviews to Russan TV are transcripted and translated.
So we have no source of reference and have to take your word for this.
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What's wrong with my logic? You don't trust "sources", OPCW is among them, who else can we trust? Putin or May. Or I forgot someone?
What's wrong with your logic is that you think you can make a point by putting words into other people's mouths.
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Uhm, excuse me, but the only thing you managed to do was verify words in my post. And that’s great! My intention is “not” to write in a way where the words origins are no longer recognizable. It’s just as wrong to “take” copy from a source to recreate it as your own. We use clichés and popular phrases constantly without acknowledgement. Yet, this too is a direct form of plagiarism. I don’t change facts and truth, it’s obvious that anyone can check if they so desire (I’m not naive to that probability)

When the material you post is not your original thoughts, it's good manners, and a matter of intellectual honesty, to cite your source rather than claim credit for yourself.

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I don’t have to impress ANYONE on this thread or this site...and don’t try to either.
And I wholeheartedly congratulate you on achieving as much.

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This shows that many people have no idea of the comings-and-goings of world politics and will not be unprepared for the BIG changes on the horizon.
I will not be unprepared.
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  #327  
Old 22.03.2018, 17:04
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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You have to mix them at the correct concentrations, just pouring the two components into the same container achieves nothing.
Absolutely, which is why you pre-dose them and pour only the correct concentration into the same container
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  #328  
Old 22.03.2018, 17:05
arz arz is offline
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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What's wrong with your logic is that you think you can make a point by putting words into other people's mouths.
It's not an answer. Let's try step by step. Do you find anything unclear, inexact or contradictory in the paragraph from OPCW 2013 session that I posted? I'll repeat it, along with the link:

Non-scheduled toxic chemicals that may pose a risk to the Convention
82. In 2008, a book authored by Vil Mirzayanov, a former Soviet scientist, reported that
Soviet scientists had investigated a new class of nerve agents commonly referred to as
“Novichoks” (newcomers), which were suitable for use as binary weapons. The
structures shown in the book incorporated an acetamidine or guanidine group into a
sarin-like structure in place of the alkoxy group. While some of these structures fall
within the generic definition of Schedule 2B(4) chemicals, it was reported that some
were non-scheduled analogues, wherein the alkyl group attached directly to
phosphorus was replaced by an alkoxy group. The compounds were reported to have
high toxicity and no recorded industrial use. There is very little information available
on those compounds in open-source literature, and the existence and properties have
not been verified in peer reviewed literature. The SAB is therefore not in a position to
make further comments.


Sourced from OPCW:
https://www.opcw.org/fileadmin/OPCW/...rc3dg01_e_.pdf

Please correct me if I am wrong, but there are only two options: Either believe OPCW who says Novichok may be a fake, or believe Mrs. May who says Novichok may be real.

Do you see a third option? Or you choose one of the two above?
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  #329  
Old 22.03.2018, 17:28
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

The requested URL /fileadmin/OPCW/...rc3dg01_e_.pdf was not found on this server.
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  #330  
Old 22.03.2018, 17:31
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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It's not an answer. Let's try step by step. Do you find anything unclear, inexact or contradictory in the paragraph from OPCW 2013 session that I posted? I'll repeat it, along with the link:

Non-scheduled toxic chemicals that may pose a risk to the Convention
82. In 2008, a book authored by Vil Mirzayanov, a former Soviet scientist, reported that
Soviet scientists had investigated a new class of nerve agents commonly referred to as
“Novichoks” (newcomers), which were suitable for use as binary weapons. The
structures shown in the book incorporated an acetamidine or guanidine group into a
sarin-like structure in place of the alkoxy group. While some of these structures fall
within the generic definition of Schedule 2B(4) chemicals, it was reported that some
were non-scheduled analogues, wherein the alkyl group attached directly to
phosphorus was replaced by an alkoxy group. The compounds were reported to have
high toxicity and no recorded industrial use. There is very little information available
on those compounds in open-source literature, and the existence and properties have
not been verified in peer reviewed literature. The SAB is therefore not in a position to
make further comments.


Sourced from OPCW:
https://www.opcw.org/fileadmin/OPCW/...rc3dg01_e_.pdf

Please correct me if I am wrong, but there are only two options: Either believe OPCW who says Novichok may be a fake, or believe Mrs. May who says Novichok may be real.

Do you see a third option? Or you choose one of the two above?
OPCW did not say "Novichok may be a fake", they simply said they lack sufficient information.
The reason is Russia cleverly never followed the path of righteousness and declared Novichok to the OPCW, it is a strategy of plausible deniability.
This typically implies forethought, intentionally setting up the conditions to plausibly avoid responsibility.

BTW, your link does not work
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  #331  
Old 22.03.2018, 17:33
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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Absolutely, which is why you pre-dose them and pour only the correct concentration into the same container
I imagine you making a cake, you put the correct proportions of eggs, sugar, flour and water into a container then sit back and wait for the dough to form
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  #332  
Old 22.03.2018, 17:34
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

‘It’s got me’ – lonely death of Soviet scientist poisoned by novichok

A disturbing description of what possibly awaits the Skripals and the police officer.
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  #333  
Old 22.03.2018, 17:36
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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* The chemical “causes a slowing of the heart and restriction of the airways, leading to death by asphyxiation”, said pharmacology expert Prof. Gary Stephens at the University of Reading. “One of the main reasons these agents are developed is because their component parts are not on the banned list.”
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-b...-idUSKCN1GO2JG
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  #334  
Old 22.03.2018, 20:18
arz arz is offline
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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OPCW did not say "Novichok may be a fake", they simply said they lack sufficient information.
The reason is Russia cleverly never followed the path of righteousness and declared Novichok to the OPCW, it is a strategy of plausible deniability.
This typically implies forethought, intentionally setting up the conditions to plausibly avoid responsibility.
That's a "highly likely" thing again. Pure speculations. What did not Russia follow?
The thriller in The Mirsayanov's book?
Once again: There is no other source about Novichok than this book, Or is there?


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BTW, your link does not work
Aha, copy-paste of URLs from other post doesn;t work. Here it is

https://www.opcw.org/fileadmin/OPCW/...rc3dg01_e_.pdf


I see no difference from the stories about the Iraq chemical weapons program, only the test tube with white powder is missing. Where are the documents?

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Absolutely, which is why you pre-dose them and pour only the correct concentration into the same container
Whatt marks did you have for chemistry in the school?
NaCl contains 1 Na and 1 Cl.
If you react 5 Na and 1 Cl, you still get 1 NaCl, and 4 unused Na
Looks like if BBC will tell you that 2x2 highly likely is 7, you'll defend it to the last breath.

Last edited by arz; 22.03.2018 at 20:51.
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  #335  
Old 22.03.2018, 21:28
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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That's a "highly likely" thing again. Pure speculations. What did not Russia follow?
The thriller in The Mirsayanov's book?
Once again: There is no other source about Novichok than this book, Or is there?




Aha, copy-paste of URLs from other post doesn;t work. Here it is

https://www.opcw.org/fileadmin/OPCW/...rc3dg01_e_.pdf




I see no difference from the stories about the Iraq chemical weapons program, only the test tube with white powder is missing. Where are the documents?



Whatt marks did you have for chemistry in the school?
NaCl contains 1 Na and 1 Cl.
If you react 5 Na and 1 Cl, you still get 1 NaCl, and 4 unused Na
Looks like if BBC will tell you that 2x2 highly likely is 7, you'll defend it to the last breath.
"NaCl contains 1 Na and 1 Cl.
If you react 5 Na and 1 Cl,"

I suppose you never did chemistry in school?
That idea is not very clever
Tossing lumps of sodium metal into chlorine gas is not something I recommend you try at home and does not work without some water as a catalyst.

The reaction is extremely exothermic, producing a bright yellow light and a great deal of heat energy.

You need to react something like Na2CO3 (sodium carbonate) with HCl (hydrochloric acid) which gives NaCl (common table salt) plus H2O (water).
If you get the proportions wrong with maybe too much HCl then you will get a result that will burn your tongue off if you put it on your fried potatoes.

Organic chemistry is even more complicated
One of the Novichok components is an organophosphate which looks like this
Name:  1200px-Phosphate_formula.jpg
Views: 121
Size:  15.3 KB
If you add the incorrect proportion of the other component then you will get something quite different than Novichok.

But you know all this and you are just trolling?
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Last edited by marton; 22.03.2018 at 23:38.
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  #336  
Old 22.03.2018, 23:31
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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Donald Tusk‏Verified account @eucopresident
#EUCO agrees with UK government that highly likely Russia is responsible for #SalisburyAttack and that there is no other plausible explanation.
https://twitter.com/eucopresident/st...36930238713857
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  #337  
Old 23.03.2018, 06:39
arz arz is offline
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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The reaction is extremely exothermic, producing a bright yellow light and a great deal of heat energy.
You forgot to tell how to blow the coca-cola bottles. This has a better rating at youtube.
Fortunately, there are more peace and safe ways to receive table salt, try Wiki.

Shemas that everyone keeps posting, make no much sense either - where are the schemas of binary components? Synthesis and application are two very different procedures, and it would be a strange idea to require exact proportion for field application of a binary weapon.
According to OPCW, there are no known synthesis and application experiments, so the whole thing is still at the level of horror stories for old ladies. "Make a nuclear bomb in the garage in three simple steps"

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If you add the incorrect proportion of the other component then you will get something quite different than Novichok.
Do you have a reference? Is it CNN or BBC?


Yeah comments there seem to be more interesting than here
It becomes more and more "highly likely" that pure Skripals and the police detective were poisoned with apple tree spray from the garden shop.
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  #338  
Old 23.03.2018, 08:06
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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You forgot to tell how to blow the coca-cola bottles. This has a better rating at youtube.
Fortunately, there are more peace and safe ways to receive table salt, try Wiki.

Shemas that everyone keeps posting, make no much sense either - where are the schemas of binary components? Synthesis and application are two very different procedures, and it would be a strange idea to require exact proportion for field application of a binary weapon.
According to OPCW, there are no known synthesis and application experiments, so the whole thing is still at the level of horror stories for old ladies. "Make a nuclear bomb in the garage in three simple steps"

Do you have a reference? Is it CNN or BBC?

Yeah comments there seem to be more interesting than here
It becomes more and more "highly likely" that pure Skripals and the police detective were poisoned with apple tree spray from the garden shop.


Quote:
If you add the incorrect proportion of the other component then you will get something quite different than Novichok.
I do not need a reference, it is basic organic chemistry which I assume you did not study at school.

"Make a nuclear bomb in the garage in three simple steps"
"were poisoned with apple treuse spray from the garden shop." Now you have given up making your case and are simply trolling.
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  #339  
Old 23.03.2018, 08:59
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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‘It’s got me’ – lonely death of Soviet scientist poisoned by novichok

A disturbing description of what possibly awaits the Skripals and the police officer.

according to the guy who created it and defected to the west, they are all goners, exposure is fatal sooner or later. (assuming thats what they where exposed to that is)
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Old 23.03.2018, 09:11
arz arz is offline
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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Now you have given up making your case and are simply trolling.
Well what else can I do waiting for at least some answers to my very straight questions.
All I got so far were speculations, tabloid links and the famous "highly likely" show.
1. Why is the case classified
2. What's the origin of "Novichok" term, apart from Mirsayanov's paperback?
3. Why is Russian involvement in this case "more likely" than British?
4. Are BBC, CNN and OPCW at the same level of credibility and, if yes, is Mrs. May's level higher?

My questions about MH17 and Litvinenko remain unanswered, too. Remember, it was not me who brought these off-topics in.
I hope now at least there are no doubts about Iraq "chemical weapons" and Russian Hackers affecting US elections.
Let's count who lied more in the past 10 years scandals, then we at least can extrapolate whose lies are more "highly likely" now.

Last edited by arz; 23.03.2018 at 09:21.
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