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  #381  
Old 28.03.2018, 10:04
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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. . .
Somehow the quality of the English used in the slides does not ring true, not typical English Civil Servant lingo?
Of course it could be a forgery. Maybe some other versions come to light. But as far as the English is concerned, you are right that it is certainly not UK official-speak and could have just as easily been put together by, for example, a reporter from the Sun. But then again, the Iraq "Dodgy Dossier" was plagiarised 100% from a non-official source and simply "sexed up" so would presumably also be devoid of UK official-speak, so that in itself can't be an indication of the authenticity of the document. Or can it ?

Edit:
I've just noticed the Euro notes on the washing line. It was a Sun reporter who put the document together.
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  #382  
Old 28.03.2018, 10:20
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

I'm disappointed. I was hoping for a better spoof from the Russians.
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  #383  
Old 28.03.2018, 10:22
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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Of course it could be a forgery. Maybe some other versions come to light. But as far as the English is concerned, you are right that it is certainly not UK official-speak and could have just as easily been put together by, for example, a reporter from the Sun. But then again, the Iraq "Dodgy Dossier" was plagiarised 100% from a non-official source and simply "sexed up" so would presumably also be devoid of c so that in itself can't be an indication of the authenticity of the document. Or can it ?

Edit:
I've just noticed the Euro notes on the washing line. It was a Sun reporter who put the document together.
I do not agree the Iraq dossier certainly uses typical UK official-speak look here at the original.
I am not talking about the accuracy of the document just the syntax.

I do not believe the use of UK official-speak confirms the authenticity of any document but on the other hand lack of UK official-speak does create considerable doubts.
One major failure of this slide set about Salisbury incident is it does not contain any attribution to any official body which UK Government documents do usually contain. For example, from the Iraq dossier "Iraq’s capabilities have been regularly reviewed by the Joint Intelligence Committee (JIC)"
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  #384  
Old 28.03.2018, 11:12
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

@ProsperityJoy
"Don’t mention Crimea please as Crimea has been a part of Russia since 1783 handed over to Ukraine in 1954 by Khruschev."

So you believe it is OK for the former owners to march into any country that was granted independence in the last 70 years and take it over?

There are some 80 such countries, list here.

This list includes most of the Middle East so no problem to take over the oil producers
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  #385  
Old 28.03.2018, 11:20
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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I wanted to get back to you yesterday but got tied up. Thanks for your post. Yes, these types (those who want to remain asleep) are what the Marxist call "useful idiots."
research clearly isn't your strong suit...

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Useful_idiot

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It's pretty much like the events leading up to WWII in Germany. There were those who "saw the signs" and left. Then there were those who "woke-up" too late...and those who never woke-up and well, we know what happened. Unfortunately..."fools outweigh the prudent." Thankfully, there are still countries left with intelligence and common sense.
"pretty much"? Is that similar to 'highly likely'?
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  #386  
Old 28.03.2018, 11:32
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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I'm disappointed. I was hoping for a better spoof from the Russians.
It certainly should have been better. In the Independent, it was hyped up as this:

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“We have”, acknowledged a senior Whitehall official, “shared unprecedented levels of intelligence with partners.” The information from the UK was deliberately shared with policy makers rather than just security chiefs abroad to “show there was no other plausible explanation for responsibility other than the Russian state”.
I'm still waiting to see what (if anything) appears in the UK media on this document. If, however, the kommersant.ru version of the document is authentic, then those who have taken serious action on that basis will have exposed themselves to taunting if not outright ridicule.
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  #387  
Old 28.03.2018, 11:46
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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I'm still waiting to see what (if anything) appears in the UK media on this document. If, however, the kommersant.ru version of the document is authentic, then those who have taken serious action on that basis will have exposed themselves to taunting if not outright ridicule.
My problems with this document:

I'm shite at powerpoint, and even I've put together better presentations than that!

All the information in it is already in the public domain.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/i...o-arrive-in-uk
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  #388  
Old 28.03.2018, 12:06
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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My problems with this document:

I'm shite at powerpoint, and even I've put together better presentations than that!

All the information in it is already in the public domain.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/i...o-arrive-in-uk
And if it is not genuine, the clue is in the place of publication by the date on the cover sheet.
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  #389  
Old 28.03.2018, 12:12
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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It certainly should have been better. In the Independent, it was hyped up as this:

Quote:
“We have”, acknowledged a senior Whitehall official, “shared unprecedented levels of intelligence with partners.” The information from the UK was deliberately shared with policy makers rather than just security chiefs abroad to “show there was no other plausible explanation for responsibility other than the Russian state”.
I'm still waiting to see what (if anything) appears in the UK media on this document. If, however, the kommersant.ru version of the document is authentic, then those who have taken serious action on that basis will have exposed themselves to taunting if not outright ridicule.
I find it hard to believe that the kommersant.ru document is genuine, or that it would be the "unprecedented levels of intelligence" referred to by the Independent. It looks like something cobbled together for a school project.

Kommersant is apparently owned by this guy.
'I spit on you again': Russian billionaire renews tirade against Putin rival
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  #390  
Old 28.03.2018, 12:20
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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I find it hard to believe that the kommersant.ru document is genuine, or that it would be the "unprecedented levels of intelligence" referred to by the Independent. It looks like something cobbled together for a school project.
Probably the British embassy in Moscow is not stocked with highest caliber personnel. Anyway, a document which has been so widely circulated is bound to leak out.
Here is the whole article: https://translate.google.ch/translat...-text=&act=url
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  #391  
Old 28.03.2018, 12:21
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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Classic scheme, ruled by agreements, traditions and common sense, is changing to so-called "religious" scheme, where belief is prevailing over everything else.
Those who demand proofs and facts, must burn on a fire.
What irrefutable proof do you have for Putin's existence, for Trump's red hair, etc?

Ultimately, accepting most any data point is a matter of trust and belief.
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  #392  
Old 28.03.2018, 12:24
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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All the information in it is already in the public domain.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/i...o-arrive-in-uk
Pure lies.

It reflects the UK’s commitment to fully complying with the obligations of the Chemical Weapons Convention. On 12 March the Foreign Secretary summoned the Russian Ambassador and sought an explanation from the Russian government, as Article 9 of the convention is clear we have the right to do. We received no meaningful response. It is therefore Russia which is failing to comply with the provisions of the convention. We should resist any Russian attempts to muddy the waters.

The "compliant" behavior was:
- Accuse Russia after few hours after the event
- Hide all evidence, victims and witnesses
- Classify the case
- Demand confession in 24 hours
- Ignore requests for proof and deny cooperation
- Involve OPCW after 8 days only

The document is full of other "inaccuracies" that have been pointed out and ignored here many times.
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  #393  
Old 28.03.2018, 12:33
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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Pure lies.

It reflects the UK’s commitment to fully complying with the obligations of the Chemical Weapons Convention. On 12 March the Foreign Secretary summoned the Russian Ambassador and sought an explanation from the Russian government, as Article 9 of the convention is clear we have the right to do. We received no meaningful response. It is therefore Russia which is failing to comply with the provisions of the convention. We should resist any Russian attempts to muddy the waters.

The "compliant" behavior was:
- Accuse Russia after few hours after the event
- Hide all evidence, victims and witnesses
- Classify the case
- Demand confession in 24 hours
- Ignore requests for proof and deny cooperation
- Involve OPCW after 8 days only

The document is full of other "inaccuracies" that have been pointed out and ignored here many times.
Almost like it's a poorly executed fake, you mean?
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  #394  
Old 28.03.2018, 13:18
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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I wanted to get back to you yesterday but got tied up. Thanks for your post. Yes, these types (those who want to remain asleep) are what the Marxist call "useful idiots." It's pretty much like the events leading up to WWII in Germany. There were those who "saw the signs" and left. Then there were those who "woke-up" too late...and those who never woke-up and well, we know what happened. Unfortunately..."fools outweigh the prudent." Thankfully, there are still countries left with intelligence and common sense.

"Other nations are being more level-headed, refusing to act until the investigation has been completed. On Tuesday, Switzerland noted that it would wait for the results of the investigation before taking any action (and I would expect no less from Switzerland) Its Foreign Ministry said that the country "supports mechanisms and institutions that can independently clarify facts and security evidence."Austria also said it would not be taking any "national measures," while noting its desire to "keep the channels of communication to Russia open."
Cyprus also declined to expel any Russian diplomats without any further evidence. "Our country is not in a position to take measures against countries that are permanent members of the UN Security Council," government spokesman Prodromos Prodromou told Cyprus News Agency (CNA) on Monday, as quoted by the Independent Balkan News Agency (IBNA).
Other EU nations, including Bulgaria, Cyprus, Luxembourg, Malta, Portugal, Slovakia, and Slovenia, have also declined to join the expulsion frenzy. Scores of non-Western countries (at least 160) refuse to take the UK’s assertion that Russia was behind the incident in Salisbury at face value, demanding it present the evidence.“Even if Mrs. May said that she was absolutely sure that Russia was responsible for the incident in Salisbury, she would have to present all evidence to Russia, the international community and the British public. This is the opinion of almost 160 countries which are not members of the Western bloc,” he said. “It is obvious that no one in the wider world would take British words for granted.”....
Anyway, let's hope that "wiser heads prevail." TAKE CARE....!
But 17 EU member states, and Norway, Ukraine, Macedonia and Albania all seem to agree with the UK, that it was an attack carried out by Russia, using a Nerve agent on British soil. I am guessing that they have more access to the relevant information than you do, and as expelling diplomats is a pretty serious response to a very serious crime I am sure they have not taken that onboard lightly.
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Old 28.03.2018, 13:28
arz arz is offline
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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Almost like it's a poorly executed fake, you mean?
I'm not judging nor guessing.
I just don't believe them, and I have a good reason for that.

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But 17 EU member states, and Norway, Ukraine, Macedonia and Albania all seem to agree with the UK, that it was an attack carried out by Russia, using a Nerve agent on British soil. I am guessing that they have more access to the relevant information than you do, and as expelling diplomats is a pretty serious response to a very serious crime I am sure they have not taken that onboard lightly.
There's some inaccuracy here again
Can you provide an official statement of any EU government representative who "agree with the UK, that it was an attack carried out by Russia", or they agree that it's a "highly likely" thing, or they just want to express solidarity? Or have to express?

Are you guessing that these EU members have "more access to relevant information"?
Do other EU members who refused to follow UK, have the same access?

Last edited by arz; 28.03.2018 at 13:38.
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  #396  
Old 28.03.2018, 13:31
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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I'm not judging nor guessing.
I just don't believe them, and I have a good reason for that.
So far you have not provided a good reason!
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  #397  
Old 28.03.2018, 13:39
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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I'm not judging nor guessing.
I just don't believe them, and I have a good reason for that.



There's some inaccuracy here again
Can you provide an official statement of any EU government representative who "agree with the UK, that it was an attack carried out by Russia", or they agree that it's a "highly likely" thing, or they just want to express solidarity? Or have to express?

Are you guessing that these EU members have "more access to relevant information"?
Do other EU members who refused to follow UK, have the same access?
Well they are all expelling Russian diplomats, I take that to be a unified agreement that Russia has done some bad.
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  #398  
Old 28.03.2018, 13:44
arz arz is offline
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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What irrefutable proof do you have for Putin's existence, for Trump's red hair, etc?

Ultimately, accepting most any data point is a matter of trust and belief.
Exactly. Data point.
Where is it in Skripal's case? In Litvinenko, MH17, Russian hackers affecting US election.
I saw Putin and Trump many times.
I don't believe in other stuff. Some other people do.
It's religious.
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Old 28.03.2018, 13:46
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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There's some inaccuracy here again
Can you provide an official statement of any EU government representative who "agree with the UK, that it was an attack carried out by Russia", or they agree that it's a "highly likely" thing, or they just want to express solidarity? Or have to express?
Quote:
Donald Tusk@eucopresident
#EUCO agrees with UK government that highly likely Russia is responsible for #SalisburyAttack and that there is no other plausible explanation.

11:41 PM - Mar 22, 2018
You really must learn to use google.
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Old 28.03.2018, 13:47
arz arz is offline
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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Well they are all expelling Russian diplomats, I take that to be a unified agreement that Russia has done some bad.
It's just your take. I take it differently. As do lots of countries, including EU members.
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