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  #481  
Old 05.04.2018, 23:26
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

I gave up on Day 1 for two reasons...
We're dealing with scientists, who rarely state that something is an absolute 100% certainty. We're also dealing with UK security services who don't even tell the whole truth to their own families, nevermind the likes of us. When all the parties involved are dead and gone, then... perhaps then... someone will unearth a dusty old file marked 'Classified' and find that there's still another 50yrs of the Official Secrets Act on it.
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  #482  
Old 06.04.2018, 11:02
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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I gave up on Day 1 for two reasons...
We're dealing with scientists, who rarely state that something is an absolute 100% certainty.
I'm glad they realized that and the necessity to keep it in mind at all times that science is always as correct as to "today's knowledge".

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We're also dealing with UK security services who don't even tell the whole truth to their own families, nevermind the likes of us. When all the parties involved are dead and gone, then... perhaps then... someone will unearth a dusty old file marked 'Classified' and find that there's still another 50yrs of the Official Secrets Act on it.
The thing is, a crime has been committed. Attempted murder for sure, accepting injury/death of bystanders etc. etc.
In a constitutional state a crime demands an investigation, a charge (anything to do with murder is a criminal offence liable to public prosecution), a court case and a verdict.
Simple. No?!
Whether the whole thing was instigated by politicians, a governement, what ever is the second stage.

And such a thing being classified, locked up to the public for 50 years ..... wtf? They have that with the details on the murder of Kennedy too, don't they? And nobody finds that strange? No wonder people think it's all conspiracy - it's gotta be if a plain murder - and that's what it was with Kennedy firstly, him being the US president comes secondly - is being kept secret from the public?
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  #483  
Old 06.04.2018, 11:22
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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I'm glad they realized that and the necessity to keep it in mind at all times that science is always as correct as to "today's knowledge".


The thing is, a crime has been committed. Attempted murder for sure, accepting injury/death of bystanders etc. etc.
In a constitutional state a crime demands an investigation, a charge (anything to do with murder is a criminal offence liable to public prosecution), a court case and a verdict.
Simple. No?!
Whether the whole thing was instigated by politicians, a governement, what ever is the second stage.

And such a thing being classified, locked up to the public for 50 years ..... wtf? They have that with the details on the murder of Kennedy too, don't they? And nobody finds that strange? No wonder people think it's all conspiracy - it's gotta be if a plain murder - and that's what it was with Kennedy firstly, him being the US president comes secondly - is being kept secret from the public?
The Kennedy files were released last year, you can download here.
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  #484  
Old 06.04.2018, 11:41
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

This is rather sad news. Their 2 guinea pigs and cat have passed away. When they finally went into the house both the guinea pigs were dead and the cat very distressed. It was taken away and later put to sleep. Not saying if any were affected by any poisonous agents or not.

Russian embassy says there was a second cat, but UK haven't said anything.

https://www.bluewin.ch/fr/infos/inte...ues-85084.html
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  #485  
Old 06.04.2018, 12:16
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

Shame, poor animals. There's some more info in the latest BBC article on the case.

Spy poisoning: Russia says UK is 'playing with fire'

"Meanwhile it has emerged that when police sealed off Mr Skripal's home at the start of the investigation. there were two guinea pigs and a cat inside. The BBC understands the guinea pigs died of starvation and the cat, distressed from dehydration, was put down."
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  #486  
Old 06.04.2018, 14:56
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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I'm glad they realized that and the necessity to keep it in mind at all times that science is always as correct as to "today's knowledge".
The main difference between science and religion.
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  #487  
Old 06.04.2018, 15:26
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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.....
"Meanwhile it has emerged that when police sealed off Mr Skripal's home at the start of the investigation. there were two guinea pigs and a cat inside. The BBC understands the guinea pigs died of starvation and the cat, distressed from dehydration, was put down."
Ahhhh, and look what a different picture there suddenly is
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  #488  
Old 06.04.2018, 15:41
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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...
"Meanwhile it has emerged that when police sealed off Mr Skripal's home at the start of the investigation. there were two guinea pigs and a cat inside. The BBC understands the guinea pigs died of starvation and the cat, distressed from dehydration, was put down."
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Ahhhh, and look what a different picture there suddenly is
How do you think this changes the picture?
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  #489  
Old 06.04.2018, 15:43
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

Medea's mention of it gave more of an impression that the animals died of the poison. Your's states it was pure neglect.
Mind you, it changes the picture, it doesn't make it any better.
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  #490  
Old 06.04.2018, 15:56
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

What I want to know is if they knew the animals were there before they sealed the house up. If so, then they should be brought up on animal cruelty charges. While I can understand not moving them and having as little contact as possible, there's no excuse for not making provision to see them cared for in the house while the situation was being investigated.
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  #491  
Old 10.04.2018, 11:57
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

Russian spy: Daughter discharged from hospital

Russian spy: What we know so far

And on a lighter note (love the last line):

Vladimir Putin to launch Novi-choc Easter egg range
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  #492  
Old 10.04.2018, 13:35
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

Tweeted by a Ukrainian-born woman who apparently follows Russian media:

"#Russia's state TV: Vladimir Koshelev, former senior official with Russia's foreign military intelligence agency (GRU), who says he personally knew #Skripal, is on state TV show '60 Minutes.' Koshelev says about Skripal: "May he live, may he fear and may he suffer.""

https://twitter.com/juliadavisnews/s...37588754550785
http://www.juliadavisnews.com/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julia_...merican_cinema)

He apparently says it here, for anyone who can understand Russian:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CLR...outu.be&t=1471
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  #493  
Old 10.04.2018, 13:59
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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He apparently says it here, for anyone who can understand Russian:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CLR...outu.be&t=1471
If you click caption and auto-translate (gear icon) it does a pretty good job of it.
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  #494  
Old 12.04.2018, 13:55
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

Nerve agent inspectors back UK

"The international chemical weapons watchdog has confirmed the UK's analysis of the type of nerve agent used in the Russian ex-spy poisoning.

The Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons did not name the nerve agent as Novichok, but said it agreed with the UK's findings on its identity. ...

The OPCW does identify the toxic chemical by its complex formula but only in the classified report that has not been made public.

In its summary, the report notes the toxic chemical was of "high purity"."
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Old 12.04.2018, 14:19
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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Nerve agent inspectors back UK

"The international chemical weapons watchdog has confirmed the UK's analysis of the type of nerve agent used in the Russian ex-spy poisoning.

The Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons did not name the nerve agent as Novichok, but said it agreed with the UK's findings on its identity. ...

The OPCW does identify the toxic chemical by its complex formula but only in the classified report that has not been made public.

In its summary, the report notes the toxic chemical was of "high purity"."
<<The OPCW does identify the toxic chemical by its complex formula but only in the classified report that has not been made public.>>
So we - the public - are still were we were as we just have to take - in this case BBC's - word for it.
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  #496  
Old 12.04.2018, 15:47
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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<<The OPCW does identify the toxic chemical by its complex formula but only in the classified report that has not been made public.>>
So we - the public - are still were we were as we just have to take - in this case BBC's - word for it.
Well, yes. We, the public (at least in the UK) can only demand that state authorities release that information. The BBC doesn't have more to say either. It's probably part of the OPCW protocol. Would you have liked them to release the formula to the public, perhaps with easy manufacture and administration instructions on the back? Would that have made you happier?

It is however clear for anyone that reads the report that they are effectively confirming it was a Novichok product. If it wasn't the case, or if they weren't sure, the text would have read quite differently.

Now the only thing left to do is to speculate whether that Novichok came from the russian state agents or from some kind of rogue producer - but given that they also highlight the purity of the stuff the pointer is pretty much on the former (otherwise, again, they would not have mentioned it).
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Old 12.04.2018, 15:58
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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Well, yes. We, the public (at least in the UK) can only demand that state authorities release that information. The BBC doesn't have more to say either. It's probably part of the OPCW protocol. Would you have liked them to release the formula to the public, perhaps with easy manufacture and administration instructions on the back? Would that have made you happier?

It is however clear for anyone that reads the report that they are effectively confirming it was a Novichok product. If it wasn't the case, or if they weren't sure, the text would have read quite differently.

Now the only thing left to do is to speculate whether that Novichok came from the russian state agents or from some kind of rogue producer - but given that they also highlight the purity of the stuff the pointer is pretty much on the former (otherwise, again, they would not have mentioned it).
No need for a recipe, no.
<<It is however clear for anyone that reads the report that they are effectively confirming it was a Novichok product>> and <<but given that they also highlight the purity of the stuff the pointer is pretty much on the former (otherwise, again, they would not have mentioned it)>>
Just does not give me serous basis to build my opinion on.

But everybody's different of course.
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Old 12.04.2018, 16:23
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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Just does not give me serous basis to build my opinion on.

But everybody's different of course.
I can well understand that. But then, what would it be serious enough for you to build your opinion on? Who would you trust to give accurate information about so contentious events? After all, we are so remote from the events that we can only build an opinion based on what others say?

I would tend think there is (pun intended) some substance behind the report published on the OPCW website. I do not need to know all the details, I probably won't be able to understand them either. But I trust their work and their message.

Don't take this question personally, it's not aimed at you, it's more a philosophical question than anything else....
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  #499  
Old 12.04.2018, 17:37
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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I can well understand that. But then, what would it be serious enough for you to build your opinion on? Who would you trust to give accurate information about so contentious events? After all, we are so remote from the events that we can only build an opinion based on what others say?

I would tend think there is (pun intended) some substance behind the report published on the OPCW website. I do not need to know all the details, I probably won't be able to understand them either. But I trust their work and their message.

Don't take this question personally, it's not aimed at you, it's more a philosophical question than anything else....
I only saw the BBC-article, which said the report meant but didn't say ... it's all as the Brits claim. I now - think - I found the OPCW report, which I'll read in a minute.
This - although like you I won't understand the details - is the type of information and the source of opinion I can accept as "food for my own thoughts". As you said, you trust their work and their message.
I will probably not be able to form a - for me - satisfying opinion as I simply prefer the truth, which - yes I know - we'll probably never know.

Do you know if the parts that were not revealed to the public - and that's okay with me - are accessible to - all - governements? That would be important, no?

Edit: Found the answer to that and to which States can access the results (including Switzerland). This bit is strange though: <<Access of other States Parties to the report will be subject to the agreement of the United Kingdom, >>
It would mean that GB can freely accuse before these analyses were made but - if it wishes to - can withhold the result. Withold it to those countries even, who were called in to support GB on this (sending diplomats home etc.).
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  #500  
Old 13.04.2018, 01:28
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

OK folks, I see this thread is still going so I’m going to chime in for a bit. It looks like the prevarications are still circulating. In fact, the British so-called evidence is still unconvincing. It continues to be an amalgamation of insinuations and unproven declarations. Keep in mind, that the foolish nations who expelled Russian diplomats including the US stated that they are “merely taking the UK at their word” without an inkling of evidence. Well, nothing has changed. If Britain actually had concrete evidence, they would allow Russia access to specimens to perform their own tests. In fact, this procedure is authorized by the CWC (Chemical Weapons Convention) in which Russia and Britain are both members. The words: “Oh dear the wheels are coming off very quickly now; first an accusation with no evidence and now no evidence”...suits the scenario perfectly!

Western leaders have gone insane with a total disregard for international law. They consistently lie spouting one blatant lie after another in an arrogant endeavor to get the ball rolling for WW3. Apparently they’re all in cahoots as evident by Theresa May-Not’s claims of Russia poisoning and now the so-called gas attacks in Syria all going by the same playbook. Right when Trump said he wants to “pull US troops out of Syria.” (They are there illegally anyway) Another false flag...anything to keep the insanity going! Accuse, accuse, accuse, take action, war...war...war! US Secretary of Defense James Mattis reiterated that the Pentagon still has no independent evidence to confirm that there was a chemical weapons attack in Syria last week, but said he personally believes there was one. “I believe there was a chemical attack. We are looking for the actual evidence.” I’m sure they WILL FIND evidence because they’re the ones that carried out the attack! Now they’re all gathering around including the UK (without regard to their fellow man) to take a vote on going to war..the only way the idiots in the west know how to solve domestic issues and distract the populace. Thankfully, there are those of us who are not fooled and Brits who are tired of the bullsh*t.

Here are a few quotes from "woke" people:
“All I could hear while reading this article is the insistent protest, “But we’re British! We’re better than this. We taught decency to the world.” Sorry, but you’re not and you never were. It was always sleight of hand.”
FS

“How do we even know that the attack even took place should we just believe it because they say it? Is it not a coincidence that this so called chemical attack happened the same time Asaad supposedly used chemical weapons. This whole thing is a joke and these people are taking the pisss.”
Trollski


“The question is how did the British government come to the conclusion it was that substance so quickly without sending it to a laboratory first? They knew in advance because they were the ones who used that substance on the Skripals.”
Anonymous

I feel so ashamed to say I swallowed Mays lies and voted Tory. It seem that whoever wins the elections we were always blatantly tricked and lied to, every time. May has no scruples or standards, she will do anything to anybody. This skulduggery could lead to an all out war and is inspired by USA Jewish Neo-cons. There will be no winners.”

BAS

“The government does not speak for every uk citizen there are many who see this as a false flag and tactical diversion to deflect peoples attention from the real agenda of the elites and the issues that decent moral law abiding citizens are facing because of underhand dealings of our own government and the propaganda and lies spewed out daily through mainstream media. Some of us are AWAKE though and more will awaken!!?”
gail dowling

“From Porton Down or US same false flag operation that led to the invasion of Iraq via "weapons of mass destruction. Imagine if Britain can lie about Iraq and Russia, then imagine the lies they've told over the decades about Africa.?"
Anonymous


Here’s a paragraph from a very observant journalist:
“The OPCW has confirmed the UK's conclusions about the type of nerve agent used in the poisoning of Sergei and Yulia Skripal, but provided NO NEW EVIDENCE to back up Britain's claim that Russia was to blame for the attack. Despite the British government's claims of Russian 'culpability' for the poisoning, nowhere does the OPCW's report assign blame for the incident or even IDENTIFY THE SOURCE of the agent. The question is how did the British government come to the conclusion it was that substance so quickly without sending it to a laboratory first? They knew in advance because they were the ones who used that substance on the Skripals. The British government said what substance it was before sending it to the laboratory where the"best scientist in the world" were working. It is obvious that’s why, it is in fact the only explanation how they knew what it was BEFORE it was even tested.”

“Since the poisoning happened on UK territory, it only makes sense to blame the UK! Either they did it, or they allowed it to happen, or they were so horribly incompetent that anyone can do anything they want in the UK and poison the entire nation if they so choose, while those in charge choose who to pin the blame on. UK, you are it!”


THE WHOLE THING STILL DOESN'T MAKE SENSE:
The Brits screwed up by rushing to judgement, disregarding international protocol, and continuous contradictions. Boris “The Clown” Johnson even backtracked his tweet and took it from the website.
“British Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson is under pressure to explain why his department deleted a tweet accusing Russia of making the nerve agent that poisoned ex-spy Sergei Skripal.
A March 22 tweet by the UK Foreign Office claimed chemical weapons scientists had established the novichok poison deployed in Salisbury weeks before had been manufactured in Russia." You can find references to this at a number of sites:

The British people and the world (who want to prevent WW3) must continue to ask questions and ask for concrete evidence and clarification. Either way, this is NOTHING TO GO TO WAR OVER, but the idiots in the west don’t care. Thank goodness, Putin has handled the situation with aplomb. If Putin (Russia) had gone off-the-handle like UK, there’s no telling how this would be playing out at this very moment. The UK official narrative has weak legs and cannot stand. In fact, it falls short under persistent scrutiny.

According to officials:
“The British Government has also refused to grant the Russian Embassy in London consular access to two Russian nationals, Sergei and Yulia Skripal, which it is legally obliged to do under Articles 36 and 37 of the 1963 Vienna Convention and Article 35 (1) of the 1965 Consular Convention.”

“Then, some 24 days after the incident, it was announced that a high concentration of the “military-grade nerve agent” had been found on the front door, and that this was the likely place of poisoning. Yet it is known that after leaving the house, Mr Skripal and his daughter drove into the City Centre, went to the Mill pub, and then to the restaurant where they ate a meal together. In other words, according to the door theory, the two of them were poisoned by a military grade nerve agent, which then took over three hours to have any effect, a type said to be 5-8 times the toxicity of VX nerve agent. This scenario itself is surely open to question.”

“The official explanation – that this was planned and authorised at the highest level within the Russian Government – would lead one to believe that the action was carried out by top level agents of the FSB. Yet the mode of attack – nerve agent apparently smeared or sprayed on the door – has to be one of the least effective methods that could be used to assassinate anyone!”

Supporters of Russia from the UK:
“The Russian Embassy in the UK tweeted a few letters of support, sent by British nationals, amid London's ongoing smear campaign against Moscow over the Skripal case. The Russian Embassy in London has been receiving letters of support from British people in relation to the UK government’s premature measures to the alleged poisoning attack on Sergei and Yulia Skripal in Salisbury.

One of the letters suggested that in 2003 the UK was “tricked into supporting an illegal war in Iraq” after fake evidence of the presence of weapons of mass destruction in the country was presented. He/she proceeded to say that there was no trust in reports covered by the mainstream media, calling the behavior of the government “inexcusable” when referring to the mass expulsion of Russian diplomats.

Twitter users from the UK also spoke out to support Moscow amid mounting “Russophobic” sentiments across the globe, apologizing for their government’s actions…:A more lackluster and shrill cohort can hardly be imagined. The official media’s attempts to rally the British people around the May government are backfiring, as the country’s citizens increasingly realize that this suspicious event seeks to deflect attention away from their government’s failure to attend to the needs of its people. Read here about London and the increase of murders. You can search and find plenty more information. The British populace is well aware of the similarities between this event and former PM Tony Blair’s deceptive campaign to convince his constituents that invading Iraq was ethically warranted.”


For people in the west to believe that their leaders are “beyond” carrying out dastardly deeds (which they’ve been doing for decades), that somehow they are “good people” who would not harm the citizenry, that somehow they are noble souls who are better than the peasant population, that somehow they are intelligent, superior, and beyond corruption, that only Russia, China, Iran, and eastern nations are capable of such maliciousness, are fooling themselves. The British government now tries to cover itself with even more lies. It’s a reminder of the saying from Adolf Hitler: “Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it.” A passing quote: “Expect more lies, propaganda and false flags from the west led by the masterminds of the western crime cabal, UK and US.”

Here is an interesting podcasts featuring a Paul Craig Roberts interview. If you don’t know who he is look him up. It’s about 45 minutes so if you’re interested in watching grab yourself a cup of coffee or tea and enjoy. He’s widely known, reputable, and has some interesting things to say. Another podcasts here features an older very insightful British woman. She’s a charm.

Take care everyone…! Let's hope this will be all over soon...peacefully.

Last edited by ProsperityJoy; 13.04.2018 at 01:51.
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