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  #101  
Old 14.03.2018, 15:07
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

Measures announced.

"Among them are:
◾The expulsion of 23 diplomats - who have one week to leave
◾Increased checks on private flights, customs and freight
◾The freezing of Russian state assets where there is evidence they may be used to threaten the life or property of UK nationals or residents
◾Ministers and Royal Family to boycott the Fifa World Cup in Russia later this year
◾The suspension of all planned high level bi-lateral contacts between the UK and Russia"

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43402506
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  #102  
Old 14.03.2018, 15:10
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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Measures announced.

"Among them are:
◾The expulsion of 23 diplomats - who have one week to leave
◾Increased checks on private flights, customs and freight
◾The freezing of Russian state assets where there is evidence they may be used to threaten the life or property of UK nationals or residents
◾Ministers and Royal Family to boycott the Fifa World Cup in Russia later this year
◾The suspension of all planned high level bi-lateral contacts between the UK and Russia"

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43402506

that'll teach em!
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  #103  
Old 14.03.2018, 15:27
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

Can anyone explain why we have developed such a hostile relationship with Russia and what national interest does it serve?
The USSR, Warsaw Pact and Communism are all dead, we have no common border and yet we continue to treat Russia like a traditional Cold War enemy. If its human rights or free speech then the obvious examples are our cosy relations with the Saudis and Chinese.

The point is that we are a small island nation goading the world largest country into a war. I can understand people who say its the principle and you cannot just kill people in broad daylight, but espionage is a dirty business and MI6 are certainly no choir boys (snatch squads, extraordinary rendition etc.. all leading to loss of life).
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  #104  
Old 14.03.2018, 15:38
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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Can anyone explain why we have developed such a hostile relationship with Russia and what national interest does it serve?
I don't know whether it's Russia so much as whether it's Putin.
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  #105  
Old 14.03.2018, 15:40
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

it helps you win more elections, I like to think kim jong un, trump, putin etc all get together, get drunk, play silly pranks on each other, party hard, then have a quick chat about the crap they are going to accuse each other of, laughing all the way, and go back to their respective countries, and we buy all the bs.
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  #106  
Old 14.03.2018, 15:43
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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I totally agree. I hope there is an investigation at least as detailed and conclusive as in the Litvinienko case. I actually have a good level of confidence that the UK investigators will do that
Okay, sorry, I must have misunderstood your other post then.
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  #107  
Old 14.03.2018, 15:45
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

whats most disturbing in all this is everyones use of twitter, since when did the foreign office and the russian embassy use twitter / decide to have out and out arguments with each other on it, trump has a lot to answer for. these things shouldn't be done in the open ffs, what was wrong with discussing it over a brandy and the gentlemans club?
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  #108  
Old 14.03.2018, 16:05
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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whats most disturbing in all this is everyones use of twitter, since when did the foreign office and the russian embassy use twitter / decide to have out and out arguments with each other on it, trump has a lot to answer for. these things shouldn't be done in the open ffs, what was wrong with discussing it over a brandy and the gentlemans club?
Absolutely..
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  #109  
Old 14.03.2018, 16:05
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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Can anyone explain why we have developed such a hostile relationship with Russia and what national interest does it serve?
Well, for one thing it serves to keep someone like Putin in power and on the agenda. I suspect recent cooling of economic cooperation and sanctions following Ukraine invasion didn't help either
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The USSR, Warsaw Pact and Communism are all dead, we have no common border and yet we continue to treat Russia like a traditional Cold War enemy.
I think it's more like Russia that not got out of the Cold War mentality yet. Pretty much the only way it seems to react is to:
- build more weapons
- invade any neighbouring country that wants to get out of its "sphere of interest", whatever that is

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If its human rights or free speech then the obvious examples are our cosy relations with the Saudis and Chinese.
Well, the Saudis and Chinese are not flying nuclear bombers close to the UK (yet). Nor killing people on UK soil, well not yet - the Chinese may start soon, see intimidations against tibetan protesters in Switzerland

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The point is that we are a small island nation goading the world largest country into a war. I can understand people who say its the principle and you cannot just kill people in broad daylight, but espionage is a dirty business and MI6 are certainly no choir boys (snatch squads, extraordinary rendition etc.. all leading to loss of life).
I think the point is that in this case (at least in the eyes of the UK government) is a political gesture and rather than a settling of scores between spies.

The only way the UK will come out of this is pretty humiliated in any case, so at least try to have some kind of token response...
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  #110  
Old 14.03.2018, 16:16
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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Can anyone explain why we have developed such a hostile relationship with Russia and what national interest does it serve?
The USSR, Warsaw Pact and Communism are all dead, we have no common border and yet we continue to treat Russia like a traditional Cold War enemy. If its human rights or free speech then the obvious examples are our cosy relations with the Saudis and Chinese.

The point is that we are a small island nation goading the world largest country into a war. I can understand people who say its the principle and you cannot just kill people in broad daylight, but espionage is a dirty business and MI6 are certainly no choir boys (snatch squads, extraordinary rendition etc.. all leading to loss of life).
as the russians have huge amounts of cash and assets safely stored away in the uk I doubt they will be going to war any time soon, its all for show.

they've used radiation now nerve agents on uk soil, its pretty hard for them to take it up a notch now, whats next? Lasers from space?? zombies???
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  #111  
Old 14.03.2018, 16:43
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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The only way the UK will come out of this is pretty humiliated in any case, so at least try to have some kind of token response...
Your choice of 'humiliated' surprises me. I can't see why that would be the aim of this exercise.
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  #112  
Old 14.03.2018, 16:47
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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Can anyone explain why we have developed such a hostile relationship with Russia and what national interest does it serve?
Because Russia opposes the West's eastern expansion.

I think that's the main reason behind the conflict in the Ukraine from Russia's POV. IIRC there can be no NATO and EU membership talks, let alone membership, as long as the Ukraine is part of an armed conflict. Thus the conflict is likely to simmer on for many years to come.

The oil gas may provide additional incentive:
Hunter Biden, son of former Vice-POTUS Joe Biden, is member of the board of Burisma Holdings, one of Ukraine's largest private gas producers. He joined the board in 2014, right around the time the fighting started. Interestingly enough the gas fields are in Eastern Ukraine, just like the two separatist republics Luhansk and Donezk where the fighting takes place.
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  #113  
Old 14.03.2018, 16:50
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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Your choice of 'humiliated' surprises me. I can't see why that would be the aim of this exercise.
one of your spies has been poisoned with nerve agent in your own back yard in a very very public way, that's pretty humiliating don't you think?

akin to someone shagging your mrs, in your bed, then kicking your dog on the way out while giving you the finger.
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  #114  
Old 14.03.2018, 16:53
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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One thing puzzles me, or mayne it had escaped my notice, but yesterday was the first time I heard it reported that Yulia Skripa flew from Moscow to Heathrow on 3 March. Could the nerve agent have been in her luggage?

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43315636
That does seem plausible. But it must presumably(?) have been in a medium that allowed her and her father to simultaneously receive a similar dose if they were both found in a similar condition at the same time and are both still critical. If poisoning Litvinenko's tea worked before, perhaps it was something they consumed.

Last edited by Reb77Br; 14.03.2018 at 17:19.
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  #115  
Old 14.03.2018, 16:58
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

The British and Russian Intelligence and Secret Services have done a round table session to discuss the issue and it's all now crystal clear as to who's done what:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxCPj40eFNc
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  #116  
Old 14.03.2018, 17:02
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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Interesting reactions and exactly to my point

I'm not at all against suspecting Russia. I'm against this up-to-date attitude of "guilty before proven".
Plus, I would really like to know the truth (totally outdated attitude to life, I know )
True, but like the poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko the agent used was not something you can buy in your local shop but is only available from a few government owned facilities. Consequently one can assume there was a government involved.

Proving which government is harder but probably not impossible.
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  #117  
Old 14.03.2018, 17:41
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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Because Russia opposes the West's eastern expansion.

I think that's the main reason behind the conflict in the Ukraine from Russia's POV. IIRC there can be no NATO and EU membership talks, let alone membership, as long as the Ukraine is part of an armed conflict. Thus the conflict is likely to simmer on for many years to come.
But Britain no longer cares about EU expansion, nor has a say in it.

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.....
Proving which government is harder but probably not impossible.
Hmmmm, still worth a try
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  #118  
Old 14.03.2018, 20:24
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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As somebody who's country has been occupied by 'friendly' Russian troops killing locals for 21 years due to fact that we were moving very slightly towards democracy (Czechoslovakia) - never expect anything good from Russian. Common citizens might be +-OK (apart from rampart alcoholism and f**ed up attitude to life in general), but politicians are a joke of a human being, worst of the worst scum.

Putin is at least very consistent - he only cares about 'Russia's interest' - meaning staying in power and keeping friendly oligarchs untouchable and richer. Don't mind him personally stashing billions of USD in (not only) Zurich's banks via his close friends of course. Things like human decency, democracy, freedom or respect for another human being or life are a joke there. You know, things that make the country we live in the greatest out there in my humble eyes. They don't mind seeing the world burn, not at all.

His attitude to this kind of spies is pretty well known (they should die very slowly in a public way). And what sends the message more loud and clear than using a nerve agent, killing also his family (the fact that all other family members died in recent years is probably not an accident). North Korea sent the same message few months ago, for exactly same reasons - big FU to everybody while doing internal cleaning publicly.

I am no friend of US and their usually pretty abhorable foreign politics, but in this game, compared to Russians, they are holy knights in shining armor. No sympathy for the devil.
Although in principle I agree with you, I am fully aware that it depends on which side of the "story" you, as a country, happen to be. If you were a Serbian or a Palestinian you would feel that not only the USA, but the British, the French, the Germans and who know else are the "devil". In reality these are countries, some more powerful than the others, which always pursued their interests, some less brutally, or with more soft power than the others. Nothing personal, they would say. I personally don't trust any of them these days, but in all fairness, least of all - Russia. Russian people and Russian culture, as well as any other people or culture related to the aforementioned countries, are different things than their leaders or politicians. I am aware of that too.
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  #119  
Old 14.03.2018, 22:18
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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Russian people and Russian culture, as well as any other people or culture related to the aforementioned countries, are different things than their leaders or politicians. I am aware of that too.
Thank god that you do, because when I read things like this, I do wonder...
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If you were a Serbian or a Palestinian you would feel that not only the USA, but the British, the French, the Germans and who know else are the "devil". In reality these are countries, some more powerful than the others, which always pursued their interests, some less brutally, or with more soft power than the others. Nothing personal, they would say.
It's vital to remember that governments and their actions are not always a true representation of the people of a nation, their concerns and their beliefs.

It might surprise you to know that my mother always said one of the most traumatic nights of her life was listening to this broadcast when she was pregnant with my brother. My dad listened to it in the pub with his friends. My grandparents listened to it, etc...and they all felt absolutely bereft and helpless because the government of the day had sent British troops to Suez.

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  #120  
Old 15.03.2018, 08:44
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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Thank god that you do, because when I read things like this, I do wonder...

It's vital to remember that governments and their actions are not always a true representation of the people of a nation, their concerns and their beliefs.
What is different though, in some regards, is that, unlike the Anglo-Saxons, the Russians are not overly concerned with what other people think. Of them, of anything, in general. Must be part of that "'ed-up attitude to life" someone else mentioned, I love that about them. They don't feel the need to be admired, to be in the centre, to moralise, to play the justice warriors.
Refreshing, I tell ya'.

On a more serious note, if you can get over my jokes, Russia gets stronger and stronger in the Balkans - i.e. former Yugoslav states where there is a strong Serbian minority. Russia is also supporting other separatist movements in Europe, according to the principle - if they (the Amyerikanski) can do whatever they please, why shouldn't we. It's all relative anyway, in the post-truth era. I don't think that it is a good idea to abandon these states, and EU seems like abandoning or failing them now, same as they did with Turkey, in a way. There wasn't an inch of honesty when Turkey was (somehow) promised the EU membership. These countries need a solid and sustainable development plan, not accession to a club they don't belong to, at least not anytime soon, if EU has learned anything at all.

Last edited by greenmount; 15.03.2018 at 09:04.
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