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  #141  
Old 15.03.2018, 14:20
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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One would have thought it would have been sensible to confront the Russians about this with some evidence or proof rather than just rhetoric and suspicion for the time being.

Maybe the Novichoks is Russian, although as it is based on Orgnophosphates which are regularly used in Agricultural products and it was supposedly developed in the1970's one may asuume other parties have mastered the technique to produce too.

What is to say Mr. Skripal did not have the product stored at home and an accident occured, after all, he was involved in this shady sort of business itr would seem and what does Russia have to gain from killing a has been spy, who was released/swapped with their full knowledge and the football Worldcup around the corner...

Maybe somebody wants to discredit the Russians for whatever reason.

Wouldn't be the first time we've heard of irrefutable proof of "weapons of mass destruction being available in 45 minutes".....

Something is telling me this doesn't add up quite right.
Sounds very similar to the Alexander Litvinenko poisoning
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  #142  
Old 15.03.2018, 14:24
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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its amazing home many terrorists take their passports with them during attacks and leave them in handy to find places, you'd have though the first page in terrorism for dummies would be "how to hide your identity"
Difficult to board an international flight without a valid passport, that advice is probably on the second page

Also difficult to hire a vehicle without a valid driving licence.

Anyway why would terrorists want to hide their identities; mostly they want to be recognised as glorious martyrs.
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  #143  
Old 15.03.2018, 14:31
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

I smell a government stitch-up, the only reason for this type of undiplomatic language so early on is because the game is already in play.

Watching Corbyn get heckled in Parliament yesterday for urging caution, restraint and the rule of law reminds me of the Iraq War in 2003, when any MP brave enough to stand up to the government was branded a traitor and an appeaser. Tory MPs have been briefed to attack him in all interviews and media appearances since yesterday.
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  #144  
Old 15.03.2018, 14:31
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

I never realised we had so many conspiracy theorists on here. All the evidence points to Russia out to murder one of their own. That there was collateral and that the daughter was also affected isn't nice, but we know the Russians aren't nice. Other than that, who cares?
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  #145  
Old 15.03.2018, 14:38
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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but we know the Russians aren't nice.
no spy agency in any country is nice you betray your country and its pretty naive to think you'll be left alone after paying your debt, hope he invested his 100k wisely, was it really worth it
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  #146  
Old 15.03.2018, 14:52
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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no spy agency in any country is nice you betray your country and its pretty naive to think you'll be left alone after paying your debt, hope he invested his 100k wisely, was it really worth it
Perhaps, but I don't imagine other spy agencies using such public and painful methods to eliminate targets. Quick, clean and with minimal fuss. You don't see Mossad using nerve agents.
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  #147  
Old 15.03.2018, 15:06
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

just because others haven't been caught doesn't mean it doesn't happen
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  #148  
Old 15.03.2018, 15:11
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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All the evidence points to Russia
All the evidence?! Really?
Even Mrs. May admits there is no evidence, just a "high probability", because someone told her about "Novichok". Even the existence of Novichok itself can be questioned. Even the fact that there was a poisoning at all - who saw Skripals after it? Who spoke with med personnel?
But who cares if Russians aren't nice anyway
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  #149  
Old 15.03.2018, 15:23
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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Difficult to board an international flight without a valid passport, that advice is probably on the second page
all 9/11 flights where internal, no passports or anything else needed (at the time)
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  #150  
Old 15.03.2018, 15:59
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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Watching Corbyn get heckled in Parliament yesterday for urging caution, restraint and the rule of law reminds me of the Iraq War in 2003, when any MP brave enough to stand up to the government was branded a traitor and an appeaser. Tory MPs have been briefed to attack him in all interviews and media appearances since yesterday.


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  #151  
Old 15.03.2018, 16:04
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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All the evidence?! Really?
Even Mrs. May admits there is no evidence, just a "high probability", because someone told her about "Novichok". Even the existence of Novichok itself can be questioned. Even the fact that there was a poisoning at all - who saw Skripals after it? Who spoke with med personnel?
But who cares if Russians aren't nice anyway
Are you by chance working for RT? Because you argue with the same old Soviet propaganda tactics... when in doubt simply question everything and muddy the water so much that people lose the thread.

Simply put:
- the dude isn't dead, he is in hospital. So it's pretty easy for the UK to check him medically. Plenty of witnesses on the TV who have seen him. No point denying the fact that the guy was poisoned. Only question is "who did it?".
- "The existence of Novichok"? You mean as a concept or on site in salisbury? The soviet weapons program is by now pretty well known, the formula of a hundred Novichok agents are in the public domain. Since then can you expect that the western powers have developed tests to identify them in case of a use.
- It's the first time a chemical weapon was used within Nato territory for the entire cold war. That's a pretty big red line to cross. While I would not trust any country on everything... I very much doubt the UK would make up a claim if they weren't pretty certain its Novichok.

I bet pretty much everyone expected that use to be in Syria or Afghanistan, not in the UK though. I see what's in it for the FSB, but I don't think Putin would be personally stupid enough to stir the shit like this unless there are some extremely good reasons for it... so, either:
- the kremlin was the one behind it and have a good motive, for example know that the west is currently trying to turn some agents... so they make a point.

- the kremlin is not behind it but some other Russian (potentially ex-)spies who don't really liked the guy for what he was. I am sure he made some enemies as a double agent...

- well, the obvious: the guy, a known double agent with good connections in the espionage world, "retires" in the UK. Of all places does he pick the one town which is famous for the UKs own ABC program... maybe he wasn't quite as retired as the media says.
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  #152  
Old 15.03.2018, 16:20
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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Watching Corbyn get heckled in Parliament yesterday for urging caution, restraint and the rule of law reminds me of the Iraq War in 2003, when any MP brave enough to stand up to the government was branded a traitor and an appeaser. Tory MPs have been briefed to attack him in all interviews and media appearances since yesterday.
Let's be having it right...His own back benchers were heckling him for that display yesterday. The problem with Corbyn is 30% what he says and 70% what he doesn't say, and he's neatly done an about turn this afternoon.

As has been said elsewhere in this thread, 'identical' chemical compounds can have a 'signature' which gives away the location or method of their creation. That will have been one of the very first things looked for during the identification of the substance. But Poundland Gandalf had to go flapping his gob off in Parliament claiming that nobody was co-operating with Russian agencies in this identification, whilst also offering zero support for the British agencies tasked with resolving the matter. Has he never seen 'Spooks' or any recent Bond film? And whilst I'm on about fiction, who the hell has dressed Tessie May like a reject from Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome today, resplendent with a limited edition rose gold version of her usual Marley's Chain???
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  #153  
Old 15.03.2018, 16:31
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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Are you by chance working for RT? Because you argue with the same old Soviet propaganda tactics... when in doubt simply question everything and muddy the water so much that people lose the thread.
Ah, apparently that's "old Soviets" who invented the main principle of any professional investigation - "question everything". Especially question what looks most obvious. Or named obvious


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- the dude isn't dead, he is in hospital. So it's pretty easy for the UK to check him medically
Not everyone trusts UK. Has anyone else seen him?

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Plenty of witnesses on the TV who have seen him.
I heard about just one who gave only one interview.

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No point denying the fact that the guy was poisoned.
Why not?

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Only question is "who did it?".
Ah, still a question. You just said it's not anymore.

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- "The existence of Novichok"? You mean as a concept or on site in salisbury?
Both. The recipe costs $30 - as much as a paperback where it's published, according to it's "inventor". Either it's not a military grade gaz, or the whole Novichok story is a fake.

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The soviet weapons program is by now pretty well known, the formula of a hundred Novichok agents are in the public domain. Since then can you expect that the western powers hve developed tests to identify them in case of a use.
- It's the first time a chemical weapon was used within Nato territory for the entire cold war. That's a pretty big red line to cross. While I would not trust any country on everything... I very much doubt the UK would make up a claim if they weren't pretty certain its Novichok.
We've seen such claims before, quite recently, so why not doubt now?

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I bet pretty much everyone expected that use to be in Syria or Afghanistan, not in the UK though. I see what's in it for the FSB
What? How exactly does FSB benefit from poisoning a spy long after a swap deal?

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- the kremlin is not behind it but some other Russian (potentially ex-)spies who don't really liked the guy for what he was. I am sure he made some enemies as a double agent...
Nah, that wouldn't trigger so much noise.
It's obvious to me that UK government was ready to start the noise before the case happened. If it happened at all - there is still no direct proof even that Skripals are in the hospital.

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- well, the obvious: the guy, a known double agent with good connections in the espionage world, "retires" in the UK. Of all places does he pick the one town which is famous for the UKs own ABC program... maybe he wasn't quite as retired as the media says.
What's obvious about it? He landed where his former MI6 boss lives, maybe they were friends...
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  #154  
Old 15.03.2018, 16:43
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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I never realised we had so many conspiracy theorists on here. All the evidence points to Russia out to murder one of their own. That there was collateral and that the daughter was also affected isn't nice, but we know the Russians aren't nice. Other than that, who cares?
People are merely heeding your advice Loz, and have stopped taking MSM for anything other than fake news.

Wait minute, are you now saying they're not fake?
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  #155  
Old 15.03.2018, 16:43
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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Ah, apparently that's "old Soviets" who invented the main principle of any professional investigation - "question everything". Especially question what looks most obvious. Or named obvious
Umm no!

The main principle of any professional investigation is to collect evidence.
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  #156  
Old 15.03.2018, 16:56
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

think people have been watching way too many hollywood movies

you credit the security services / governments / politicians with way too much intelligence, pre-planning some huge elaborate scheme to get someone else the blame.

To get hold of this poison (and the polonium 210 before that) would just be way too much effort, not to mention the risks of getting caught and the fact someone somewhere would notice a break in / stuff missing.

my money is on them being on the same plane as the daughter, followed her to the pub and took their chance, simple. then next plane out while the police and nhs are all saying drugs o/d.

Although saying that, my old company had a contract in russia, the guys sent over there told stories of visiting the local market one weekend, when the army turned up, they preceded to unload a load of trucks and sell off everything, clothes, equipment, you name it, they all came back with russian army jackets but resisted the urge on the night vision equipment, apparently the army hadn't been paid for a while and did this kind of thing quite a bit, so you never know.
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  #157  
Old 15.03.2018, 16:58
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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UK defence secretary tells Russia 'go away and shut up'

Who's that teenie?! Britain's defence secretary? ROFL.
And what is he saying? "What Russia did ..." did? It's proven now? ..... "Russia should go away and shut up" ..... "it would be wrong to prejudge their response" .... which one now? Respond or shut up?

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Are you by chance working for RT? Because you argue with the same old Soviet propaganda tactics... when in doubt simply question everything and muddy the water so much that people lose the thread.
WTF?

If that's the old Soviet propaganda tactics - it speaks for the Russians.

<<muddy the water so much that people lose the thread>>
get so much information in that people lose their prejudices? Yeah, that's absolutely horrible. I mean how the hell will we get all these detailsin a twitter-post, right?!

I can't believe the stuff I'm reading here today.
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  #158  
Old 15.03.2018, 17:03
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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As has been said elsewhere in this thread, 'identical' chemical compounds can have a 'signature' which gives away the location or method of their creation. That will have been one of the very first things looked for during the identification of the substance.
In order to determine the signature you need to get hold of a sample for each factory. AFAIA this hasn't happened.
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  #159  
Old 15.03.2018, 17:03
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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Although saying that, my old company had a contract in russia, they guys sent over there told stories of visiting the local market one weekend, when the army turned up, they preceded to unload a load of trucks and sell off everything, clothes, equipment, you name it, they all came back with russian army jackets but resisted the urge on the night vision equipment, apparently the army hadn't been paid for a while and did this kind of thing quite a bit, so you never know.
Those days are over... at least in Moscow. By now has the Russian army there a chain of fashion stores called "Army of Russia" (I am not making this up!) selling anything from combat boots and allegedly the same equipment they use (looked on the cheap side to me...) as well as "fan" t-shirts and fashion items with pictures of their weapons systems, Putin and what not else. Last time I was there about 2 years ago did they just get a new collection on their campaign in Syria...
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Old 15.03.2018, 17:14
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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Those days are over... at least in Moscow. By now has the Russian army there a chain of fashion stores called "Army of Russia" (I am not making this up!) selling anything from combat boots and allegedly the same equipment they use (looked on the cheap side to me...) as well as "fan" t-shirts and fashion items with pictures of their weapons systems, Putin and what not else. Last time I was there about 2 years ago did they just get a new collection on their campaign in Syria...
this was quite a few years ago
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