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  #161  
Old 15.03.2018, 17:17
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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In order to determine the signature you need to get hold of a sample for each factory. AFAIA this hasn't happened.
And your source for "this hasn't happened"?

This nerve agent has been around for over 40 years.

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It is claimed that since its independence in 1991, Uzbekistan has been working with the government of the United States to dismantle and decontaminate the sites where the Novichok agents and other chemical weapons were tested and developed.
Source

So the chances the West has samples may be quite high?
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  #162  
Old 15.03.2018, 17:35
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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<<muddy the water so much that people lose the thread>>
get so much information in that people lose their prejudices? Yeah, that's absolutely horrible.
That's not what I said. The Russian propaganda works by simply claiming the opposite, no matter what.

In this example:
- the attack never happened, because nobody has seen him in the hospital.
- the poison wasn't just not used, the whole substance actually doesn't exist and is just a fake claim
- the UK might have staged the whole thing (not quite sure why though...)

that's not critical thinking or research - it does not offer any stringent or logical alternative. All it does is to question every single aspect to a point that is plain silly.

In short: If you ever watched RT, they do this all day long. It's really entertaining if you know how they work. I once watched a program on how the west made up all those claims about Russian doping... which obviously never happened either.
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Old 15.03.2018, 17:53
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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This is my take on the situation:

The UK is becoming what I would call a" warmongering fool" with only short legs to stand on, as the UK is massively raising hell with Russia likely over something the UK has done and is even banning Conservative western journalists from America and Canada by keeping them politically detained. Though they give room and board to Jihadists, allow raping of their little girls and no one dare not report it as fear of being called a racist is more important.
CORRECTION: I wrote: allow raping of their little girls and no one dare not report it as fear of being called a racist is more important.....I meant: allow raping of their little girls and no one dare report it as fear of being called a racist is more important Couldn't edit the original post. I would have let it go but it was "completely" opposite of what I intended to say...anyway..Ciao..Have a nice evening.
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  #164  
Old 15.03.2018, 18:09
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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CORRECTION: I wrote: allow raping of their little girls and no one dare not report it as fear of being called a racist is more important.....I meant: allow raping of their little girls and no one dare report it as fear of being called a racist is more important Couldn't edit the original post. I would have let it go but it was "completely" opposite of what I intended to say...anyway..Ciao..Have a nice evening.
Seriously, stop spouting nonsense. And that is irrelevant to this thread, in fact it belongs on rightwing chat rooms. It's been reported in all major news outlets. Those groups of people were arrested.

Russia is the country that restricts and controls its news output, sends anti-Kremlin reporters to jail or disappears them. I am sorry, but you are comparing a relatively democratic country with an autocratic one run by a megalomaniac mad man.
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  #165  
Old 15.03.2018, 18:20
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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I am sorry, but you are comparing a relatively democratic country with an autocratic one run by a megalomaniac mad man.
I'm pretty sure Arlene Foster is a woman, but otherwise you've nailed it.
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  #166  
Old 15.03.2018, 18:27
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

Top Putin critic Navalny calls for UK to sanction oligarchs over spy poisoning

He says the Kremlin won't be phased by symbolic responses, having got used to them over the years, he's opposed to a ban on RT, as it's relatively little watched in the UK, and it would allow the Kremlin to say censorship exists in Western countries. He says symbolic gestures of that kind would just be fodder for Kremlin propaganda and argues that the UK should instead impose asset freezes and strip visas from oligarchs close to the Kremlin, saying he can name 20 figures to start with.
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  #167  
Old 15.03.2018, 19:13
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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Top Putin critic Navalny calls for UK to sanction oligarchs over spy poisoning

He says the Kremlin won't be phased by symbolic responses, having got used to them over the years, he's opposed to a ban on RT, as it's relatively little watched in the UK, and it would allow the Kremlin to say censorship exists in Western countries. He says symbolic gestures of that kind would just be fodder for Kremlin propaganda and argues that the UK should instead impose asset freezes and strip visas from oligarchs close to the Kremlin, saying he can name 20 figures to start with.
That makes sense to me.
Do note, he also said "if this will all be proved".

And then the next problem: Does Britain have the back-bone to block the rich Russian taxpayers? Of all people?
Or will it be all talk and no action and they will place some sanctions which will only encumber the common Russian who is struggling already?
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  #168  
Old 15.03.2018, 20:07
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

Problem with all these conspiracy theories is that if the UK wanted to have a fight with Russia and also to give the blame to Russia for starting it then there are very much simpler ways to do this. Such a complex and uncertain scheme is not needed.

For example, just shoot down the next Russian war plane that enters the UK air space. Then it is clearly a Russian owned thing, no discussion whether the plane is Russian or not.
Of course, as Erdogan discovered the Russians would not take kindly to such action.
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  #169  
Old 15.03.2018, 20:39
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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Problem with all these conspiracy theories is that if the UK wanted to have a fight with Russia and also to give the blame to Russia for starting it then there are very much simpler ways to do this. Such a complex and uncertain scheme is not needed.

For example, just shoot down the next Russian war plane that enters the UK air space. Then it is clearly a Russian owned thing, no discussion whether the plane is Russian or not.
Of course, as Erdogan discovered the Russians would not take kindly to such action.
Doesn't seem to make sense. Why would the Brits want a war with Russia? And if so, they'd need the nato support (they won't likely get that if they simply shoot down a Russian plane? )

Also what would it all achieve? Telling the GB population "see? We can't do brexit, we need them"? ROFLMAO - they wouldn't go that far, would they?
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  #170  
Old 15.03.2018, 22:37
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

Some UK and US newspapers are reporting an official investigation is to be launched into allegations of links between Russia and 14 deaths in the UK over the past two decades that were previously attributed to natural causes.
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  #171  
Old 16.03.2018, 08:39
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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Some UK and US newspapers are reporting an official investigation is to be launched into allegations of links between Russia and 14 deaths in the UK over the past two decades that were previously attributed to natural causes.
lol they had a public inquiry (eventually) over Alexander Litvinenko and bugger all happened so I really wouldn't hold your breath anything will happen over this, they where sloppily investigated at the time, some would say rushed, some would say covered up, so don't expect any changes in the verdicts.
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  #172  
Old 16.03.2018, 10:29
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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That's not what I said. The Russian propaganda works by simply claiming the opposite, no matter what.
No, the "Russian propaganda" just wants a proof, because is not used to believe in fake news. The logic is as follows:
- UK government is known for lying
- UK claims something really strangs (like, FSB demonstratively killing a swapped agent and innocent civils with old Uzbek gas that's not on watch list)
- Russians ask for a proof
- UK denies to provide a proof, increases the noise level and make the whole thing top secret.
- Russians call it a "circus"

Is it a propaganda or just a critical thinking?


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In this example:
- the attack never happened, because nobody has seen him in the hospital.
And what's wrong with this statement? Why does UK deny Russian embassy a visit to Skripal's daughter (who is a Russian citizen BTW and has right for consulary assistance). She probably can't talk, how can such visit compromise UK security, as Mr. B. Johnson explains the top secret classification of this case?
What's so secret about it?
The only reason I see is that UK has nothing to show. No gas. No casualties. Do you have another explanation?

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- the poison wasn't just not used, the whole substance actually doesn't exist and is just a fake claim
- the UK might have staged the whole thing (not quite sure why though...)
If UK has a proof, why they don't show it?
If they don't show it, there is no proof.
If there is no proof, the whole story is a fake.

Is that "propaganda" or "critical thinking"? Or these became synonyms?

And motivation for "staging" the whole thing is very logical too - Poison in Syria -> Poison in UK -> US bombs Damascus. Damn primitive. Nothing new.

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that's not critical thinking or research - it does not offer any stringent or logical alternative. All it does is to question every single aspect to a point that is plain silly
Thats exactly what it does - offers a logical alternative. A lot more logical, BTW.

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In short: If you ever watched RT, they do this all day long. It's really entertaining if you know how they work. I once watched a program on how the west made up all those claims about Russian doping... which obviously never happened either.
Yep, that's what RT does all day - explains the fakes in the fake news.
Ah, and I don't work for RT, and don't even watch them more than BBC.

Last edited by arz; 16.03.2018 at 10:58.
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  #173  
Old 16.03.2018, 11:15
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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And what's wrong with this statement? Why does UK deny Russian embassy a visit to Skripal's daughter (who is a Russian citizen BTW and has right for consulary assistance). She probably can't talk, how can such visit compromise UK security
someone had just tried to murder her, *probably* a member / affiliate of the russian security services THAT'S WHY THEY WON'T ALLOW THEM TO VISIT HER ffs

Shes in a coma according to the news, so apart from shouting and moaning that they can't see her what possible gain do they have visiting her??

I'm not sure embassy staff have any rights to just rock up uninvited to citizens in hospital and demand to see them anyway, don't they have to be asked for assistance by the person or their family, good luck finding any of her close family still alive, suppose they could ask her father - oh, wait.
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Old 16.03.2018, 11:33
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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I'm not sure embassy staff have any rights to just rock up uninvited to citizens in hospital and demand to see them anyway
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Old 16.03.2018, 11:35
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

and look how well that turned out
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Old 16.03.2018, 11:37
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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and look how well that turned out
sorry, a but hard to type with just the one hand st the moment. i really shouldnt have started looing for amerocan werewolf clips
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  #177  
Old 16.03.2018, 11:38
arz arz is offline
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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someone had just tried to murder her, *probably* a member / affiliate of the russian security services THAT'S WHY THEY WON'T ALLOW THEM TO VISIT HER ffs
Nope. They deny the visit because the investigation has been classified. For no apparent reason.
What can the consul do, blow the hospital? No, he may see something that UK wants to hide.
Consulate must be involved in investigation of any serious incident with citizens abroad. That's one of the many basic laws that UK violates.
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  #178  
Old 16.03.2018, 11:45
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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Nope. They deny the visit because the investigation has been classified. For no apparent reason.
What can the consul do, blow the hospital? No, he may see something that UK wants to hide.
Consulate must be involved in investigation of any serious incident with citizens abroad. That's one of the many basic laws that UK violates.
WOW!! they are in a main NHS hospital what could they possibly hide?? you realise how many people work in hospitals?? thousands.

No apparent reason??? apart from being poisoned with a nerve agent you mean?

I think you are basing your assumptions on how your home country operates, the uk really isn't that organised and its citizens not that compliant. if they where not at the hospital or something dodgy was going on someone would be talking to the press and it would be all over the papers by now.
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  #179  
Old 16.03.2018, 11:56
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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Nope. They deny the visit because the investigation has been classified. For no apparent reason.
What can the consul do, blow the hospital? No, he may see something that UK wants to hide.
Filthy floors and appalling food?
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Old 16.03.2018, 12:01
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Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK

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WOW!! they are in a main NHS hospital what could they possibly hide?? you realise how many people work in hospitals?? thousands.
So what? None of them has ever seen Skripals daughter.
None has been interviewed by media.
Nobody denied that she is in the hospital, but nobody confirmed either.

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No apparent reason??? apart from being poisoned with a nerve agent you mean?
Exactly.
Do you have many examples when a poisoning case has been classified?

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I think you are basing your assumptions on how your home country operates, the uk really isn't that organised and its citizens not that compliant. if they where not at the hospital or something dodgy was going on someone would be talking to the press and it would be all over the papers by now.
Why we don't see a proof? Nothing but claims and stories from one side only.
No 3rd-party information.
That's what looks *really* suspicious.
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