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Reb77Br 08.03.2018 17:29

Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK
 
Salisbury attack was 'brazen and reckless'
Russian state TV anchor warns 'traitors'

Judging from comments under newspaper articles about this on Facebook along the lines of "well, he was a traitor, wasn't he?" there are quite a few apparently British Facebook users molly coddled in a democracy who are content to see the human rights they enjoy trampled on for others. That's not including the comments suspecting Western secret services behind the poisoning ("why would Russia do this before their elections and the World Cup?") and praising Vladimir Putin. But perhaps they're only being sensible, given that, according to The Sun, one of those poisoned had been criticising Putin on Facebook.

Castro 08.03.2018 18:18

Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK
 
He's a former spy who was jailed in Russia and then handed over to the UK in a prisoner swap deal. In terms of intelligence information he's a busted flush, of no further threat to Russia, so so I don't see what they have to gain by assassinating him. On the other hand Russia's enemies may have a lot to gain with a false flag operation on British soil.

For the record I am neither pro or anti Russia, i'd just rather operate on the truth.

Treverus 08.03.2018 18:33

Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Castro (Post 2919798)
so I don't see what they have to gain by assassinating him.

I don't think it's about him personally. But they are making a clear statement that spying for a foreign power is a very bad idea and that no, the UK cannot protect you even if they offer you a deal. The second message is that no, they wont forget or forgive. So even if you manage to run and hide... you'd need to fear for your life even years later.

Reb77Br 08.03.2018 18:58

Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK
 
Perhaps another message is that "they" don't give a toss for the lives of others in the vicinity (and by extension in the country?) either given the method used.

It seems particularly disturbing that family members appear to have been targeted deliberately, at the very least the daughter, as they could surely have managed to get him alone if they'd wanted to.

curley 08.03.2018 19:10

Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK
 
Why are Russian opponents of the regime always killed in such spectacular ways?
Was the Litwinenko case ever truly solved?
Somebody is trying to leave a "signature".

As Castro said, Russian enemies would make sure the case would be unique enough to point fingers on Russia easily.

Innocent until proven guilty. Once again the press is messing about. On both sides.
Decent press coverage would be: This has happened, these are the victims, this weapon has been used, no suspects yet.

Treverus 08.03.2018 19:11

Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Reb77Br (Post 2919806)
Perhaps another message is that "they" don't give a toss for the lives of others in the vicinity (and by extension in the country?) either given the method used.

It seems particularly disturbing that family members appear to have been targeted deliberately, at the very least the daughter, as they could surely have managed to get him alone if they'd wanted to.

"They" have never given a toss for collateral damage, not matter what nation they are from. Western spies are not exactly a human rights group either.

Although some say they party like Oxfam...

I'll get my coat.

arz 09.03.2018 10:38

Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Castro (Post 2919798)
In terms of intelligence information he's a busted flush, of no further threat to Russia, so so I don't see what they have to gain by assassinating him.

Even more, killing the person after swap deal would be an enormous threat to the swap deal concept in general. No intelligence service would do that.

Treverus 09.03.2018 10:54

Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by arz (Post 2919965)
Even more, killing the person after swap deal would be an enormous threat to the swap deal concept in general. No intelligence service would do that.

The UK said by now that the poison used was a nerve agent. "Not Sarin or VX, but something much rarer". I'd say only intelligence services have access to that sort of chemical weapons... not necessarily the Russians, but I dont see anyone else benefiting from the case. It's not like the UK needed any reasons to not trust the Russian government...

Tom1234 09.03.2018 11:04

Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK
 
Castro, are you a commie?

Castro 09.03.2018 11:09

Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom1234 (Post 2919987)
Castro, are you a commie?

Test says 'No'

Says I'm a socialist

baboon 09.03.2018 11:10

Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Castro (Post 2919798)
...i'd just rather operate on the truth.

I suspect your chance of getting that in this case is just about nil.

TobiasM 09.03.2018 11:15

Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK
 
They are exhuming the remains of his wife and son to see if they were also killed in suspicious circumstances. It could be Moscow, it could be the Russian Mafia, it could be any secret service. Although I don't think that the CIA or MI6 go in for taking out the families of informants or spies. This seems a very vengeful and callous act.

Spinal 09.03.2018 11:18

Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Castro (Post 2919798)
He's a former spy who was jailed in Russia and then handed over to the UK in a prisoner swap deal. In terms of intelligence information he's a busted flush, of no further threat to Russia, so so I don't see what they have to gain by assassinating him. On the other hand Russia's enemies may have a lot to gain with a false flag operation on British soil.

For the record I am neither pro or anti Russia, i'd just rather operate on the truth.

The FSB has an established policy to deter people who want to swap sides...

Paraphrased, the policy is - if you swap sides, you will never be safe. Your family will never be safe. It may take 10, 20 or 30 years... but your family will not survive.

Makes for a very effective deterrent...

Reb77Br 09.03.2018 11:20

Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK
 
A funny from the Financial Times:

Vladimir Putin faces the horror of a bit of a World Cup boycott

"The prospect of a distant cousin of the last Tsar staying away is raising pressure"


And something more serious from The Economist:

In Britain’s Russian spy mystery, clues point to Moscow

"But disentangling the Russian state from its criminal freelancers may prove hard—and responding harder still"

Phil_MCR 09.03.2018 11:30

Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TobiasM (Post 2919999)
They are exhuming the remains of his wife and son to see if they were also killed in suspicious circumstances. It could be Moscow, it could be the Russian Mafia, it could be any secret service. Although I don't think that the CIA or MI6 go in for taking out the families of informants or spies. This seems a very vengeful and callous act.

Pretty basic deterrence measure, IMO. Bigger question is why the Brits failed to protect him. This will surely make it harder for them to recruit future defectors.

Treverus 09.03.2018 11:31

Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TobiasM (Post 2919999)
it could be the Russian Mafia

And why would they choose the most obscure poison ever instead of simple bullet?

Honestly: It's probably pretty expensive to get your hands on a nerve gas, smuggle it to the UK and use it successfully without killing yourself in the process. The method was the message, just as it was with Litvinenko... using chemical weapons or radioactive poison in the UK simply is on big middle finger.

curley 09.03.2018 11:37

Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TobiasM (Post 2919999)
They are exhuming the remains of his wife and son to see if they were also killed in suspicious circumstances. It could be Moscow, it could be the Russian Mafia, it could be any secret service. Although I don't think that the CIA or MI6 go in for taking out the families of informants or spies. This seems a very vengeful and callous act.

Which rules out CIA and MI6? :confused:
Don't know anything about MI6 but from what one hears, the CIA is not squeamish.

TobiasM 09.03.2018 11:43

Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 2920018)
And why would they choose the most obscure poison ever instead of simple bullet?

Honestly: It's probably pretty expensive to get your hands on a nerve gas, smuggle it to the UK and use it successfully without killing yourself in the process. The method was the message, just as it was with Litvinenko... using chemical weapons or radioactive poison in the UK simply is on big middle finger.

It does seem to be a political statement directed at the British government. Or as has been pointed out, maybe it is a false flag attack, also intended to sway public opinion, however I don't think the majority of the British public are that pro Putin anyway.

Loz1983 09.03.2018 11:46

Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by curley (Post 2920020)
Which rules out CIA and MI6? :confused:
Don't know anything about MI6 but from what one hears, the CIA is not squeamish.

Don't MI6 kill their guys by padlocking them naked inside duffel bags? An elegant method, for a more civilised age.

TobiasM 09.03.2018 11:47

Re: Poisoning of two Russians and a police officer in Salisbury, UK
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by curley (Post 2920020)
Which rules out CIA and MI6? :confused:
Don't know anything about MI6 but from what one hears, the CIA is not squeamish.

True, who knows what goes on in cloak and dagger land. I like to think that they might be ruthless, but not completely without morals, but if they are sending a message to others at the same time as framing an enemy state, then maybe that explains it. Still it's callous and careless and I don't personally think that a Western agency is behind it.


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