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Old 10.05.2018, 09:21
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Statue of Marx unveiled in his German hometown..

So, what's more to say here? When you think you've seen it all....

This is a slap in the face for millions and millions of people, but it doesn't matter for some people in Germany. They "had" to do it because it was a Chinese donation. Or something. This is so wrong I can't even begin to explain why.

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With Germany unsure about how to mark 200 years since Karl Marx was born, a giant bronze statue of the philosopher given by China to the town of his birth is adding to the unease.
The small town of Trier near Luxembourg in western Germany eventually decided to accept the 4.5m (15ft) statue created by China's most famous sculptor - but only after years of wrangling over whether taking it would appear to condone rights abuses in China.
Marx co-wrote the Communist Manifesto, which said that all of human history had been based on class struggle. China's capitalist government presents his work as central to its way of governing.
But Marx also remains a controversial figure among Germans, many of whom lived under the Soviet Union's communist government his work inspired.
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Speaking in Trier on Friday, European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker said Marx today "stands for things which he is not responsible for and which he didn't cause because many of the things he wrote down were redrafted into the opposite".
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44009621

And then there's Juncker who is two centimeters away from accusing Eastern Europe that communism failed because they're primitive barbarians who didn't apply well the wisdom of the world genius that was the titan thinker Karl Marx. I'm prepared to hear that too. We didn't have enough humiliations. There's more, there's always more.
Go Juncker, go!

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Old 10.05.2018, 10:49
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Re: Statue of Marx unveiled in his German hometown..

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Who was Karl Marx?
The son of a Jewish lawyer in Germany, Marx became a revolutionary communist in Paris and met his lifelong collaborator Friedrich Engels there
They co-wrote the Communist Manifesto, which asserted that all human history had been based on class struggle and the workers of the world would ultimately seize power from the ruling elites
Marx then moved to London and wrote Das Kapital, arguing that an economic system based on private profit was inherently unstable. Workers were exploited by factory owners and did not own the products of their labour, he said, making them little better than machines
In the UK, Labour Party leader Jeremy Corbyn has described Marx as a "fascinating figure", saying he had "observed a great deal" and a "great deal" could be learnt from him
Marx died in 1883 and was buried at London's Highgate Cemetery
I always thought of Marx as a thinking man who provided an alternative system to capitalism with the intention of making up for its shortcomings.

So to see such a reaction to a statue was quite a surprise but seems understandable given the historic events that were caused by the people who were inspired by and implemented his ideas one way or another. But does that make him a bad person himself?

I’m indifferent to this statue donation from China, and when I visited Trier for the first time a few years back, I was surprised to see so many Chinese people flocking to the house where he was born / grew up, which I understand has become a bit of a shrine for the fans of his ideas.

If anything I feel like I should read more about the man and his work as criticising him, simply based on the effects of the implementations of communism, without reading his work would be rightly classed as ignorant.

I’m quite curious to hear why you think it’s “so wrong”...
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Old 10.05.2018, 11:42
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Re: Statue of Marx unveiled in his German hometown..

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I always thought of Marx as a thinking man who provided an alternative system to capitalism with the intention of making up for its shortcomings.

So to see such a reaction to a statue was quite a surprise but seems understandable given the historic events that were caused by the people who were inspired by and implemented his ideas one way or another. But does that make him a bad person himself?

I’m indifferent to this statue donation from China, and when I visited Trier for the first time a few years back, I was surprised to see so many Chinese people flocking to the house where he was born / grew up, which I understand has become a bit of a shrine for the fans of his ideas.

If anything I feel like I should read more about the man and his work as criticising him, simply based on the effects of the implementations of communism, without reading his work would be rightly classed as ignorant.

I’m quite curious to hear why you think it’s “so wrong”...
How many millions of deaths across how many different countries do you need to prove that socialism is a category of most malevolent ideas out on it's own ??
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Old 10.05.2018, 12:00
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Re: Statue of Marx unveiled in his German hometown..

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How many millions of deaths across how many different countries do you need to prove that socialism is a category of most malevolent ideas out on it's own ??
As opposed to what?
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Old 10.05.2018, 13:08
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Re: Statue of Marx unveiled in his German hometown..

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As opposed to what?
Anything else , obviously.

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Daniel Goldhagen says that 20th century Communist regimes "have killed more people than any other regime type."[52] Other scholars in the fields of Communist studies and genocide studies, such as Steven Rosefielde, Benjamin Valentino, and R.J. Rummel, have come to similar conclusions.[2][26][53] Rosefielde states that it is possible the "Red Holocaust" killed more non-combatants than "Ha Shoah" and "Japan's Asian holocaust" combined, and "was at least as heinous, given the singularity of Hitler's genocide." Rosefielde also notes that "while it is fashionable to mitigate the Red Holocaust by observing that capitalism killed millions of colonials in the twentieth century, primarily through man-made famines, no inventory of such felonious negligent homicides comes close to the Red Holocaust total."[53]
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Old 10.05.2018, 13:22
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Re: Statue of Marx unveiled in his German hometown..

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Anything else , obviously.
Goldhagen is a jewish lackey and seems to cherry pick his theories and I would not use him as a credited source. And I certainly don´t agree with the statement that the Germans were willing executioners. If you want the culprit of real mass murder take religion.
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Old 10.05.2018, 13:55
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Re: Statue of Marx unveiled in his German hometown..

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As opposed to what?
To national socialism... but... err...
https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...m-1186455.html
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His private conversations, however, though they do not overturn his reputation as an anti-Communist, qualify it heavily. Hermann Rauschning, for example, a Danzig Nazi who knew Hitler before and after his accession to power in 1933, tells how in private Hitler acknowledged his profound debt to the Marxian tradition. "I have learned a great deal from Marxism" he once remarked, "as I do not hesitate to admit". He was proud of a knowledge of Marxist texts acquired in his student days before the First World War and later in a Bavarian prison, in 1924, after the failure of the Munich putsch. The trouble with Weimar Republic politicians, he told Otto Wagener at much the same time, was that "they had never even read Marx", implying that no one who had failed to read so important an author could even begin to understand the modern world; in consequence, he went on, they imagined that the October revolution in 1917 had been "a private Russian affair", whereas in fact it had changed the whole course of human history! His differences with the communists, he explained, were less ideological than tactical. German communists he had known before he took power, he told Rauschning, thought politics meant talking and writing. They were mere pamphleteers, whereas "I have put into practice what these peddlers and pen pushers have timidly begun", adding revealingly that "the whole of National Socialism" was based on Marx.
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Old 10.05.2018, 13:59
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Re: Statue of Marx unveiled in his German hometown..

Politico: Marx’s Kapital crimes
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Old 10.05.2018, 14:15
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Re: Statue of Marx unveiled in his German hometown..

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Goldhagen is a jewish lackey and seems to cherry pick his theories and I would not use him as a credited source. And I certainly don´t agree with the statement that the Germans were willing executioners. If you want the culprit of real mass murder take religion.
Religion caused a lot of deaths, but has never been so successful of doing so as communism has been which only needed a relative short period of time to be responsible for tens of millions.

To me Marx made one huge error, if he would have understood human nature he would have known that communism can't work since it is not in our nature. This and his pushing/activism for it makes that I do not like the guy and think he does not deserve a statue.
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Old 10.05.2018, 14:26
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Re: Statue of Marx unveiled in his German hometown..

"If anything is certain, it is that I myself am not a Marxist."

- Karl Marx
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Old 10.05.2018, 14:34
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Re: Statue of Marx unveiled in his German hometown..

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Religion caused a lot of deaths, but has never been so successful of doing so as communism has been which only needed a relative short period of time to be responsible for tens of millions.

To me Marx made one huge error, if he would have understood human nature he would have known that communism can't work since it is not in our nature. This and his pushing/activism for it makes that I do not like the guy and think he does not deserve a statue.
Agreed, but then again in that period nobody understood human nature, the thinking of the time was that nature was a thing to overcome if we wanted to advance as a species, this was the time for experimenting with all kinds of -isms, Socialism, the "communist red new soviet man" version could have worked if people were ants. But taken into context this toxic kind of socialism could well be seen as a result of the religious wars between the 16th and 18th century, they alone almost depopulated the continent more than once, for instance the 30 year war caused the death of almost 50 percent of the population. Would socialism have existed in this form without religion? Marx himself said: "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people"
We will never know but it´s nice to speculate.
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Old 10.05.2018, 14:40
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Re: Statue of Marx unveiled in his German hometown..

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Goldhagen is a jewish lackey and seems to cherry pick his theories and I would not use him as a credited source. And I certainly don´t agree with the statement that the Germans were willing executioners. If you want the culprit of real mass murder take religion.
Religion, Politics and Race are all factors leading to mass murder, but usually because people are brainwashed into blaming others for their own misfortunes.

I do take offence of your use of the words Jewish lackey, it implies that Jews are responsible for something or other.

Parnell, to blame Marx for the actions of those who misinterpreted his ideas is just wrong. Before you say it, no I am not a Marxist. And if you've read Das Kapital and understood it, then I would question why you would challenge the ideas in it, because they are all pretty straight forward and accurately describe and challenge the reality of our capitalist based society.
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Old 10.05.2018, 14:46
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Re: Statue of Marx unveiled in his German hometown..

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And then there's Juncker who is two centimeters away from accusing Eastern Europe that communism failed because they're primitive barbarians who didn't apply well the wisdom of the world genius that was the titan thinker Karl Marx. I'm prepared to hear that too. We didn't have enough humiliations. There's more, there's always more.
Go Juncker, go!
I don't think anybody still seriously entertains the notion that Juncker is a profound thinker or a visionary European. He's just somebody who got ahead in life by doing as was expected of him.
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Old 10.05.2018, 14:52
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Re: Statue of Marx unveiled in his German hometown..

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I always thought of Marx as a thinking man who provided an alternative system to capitalism with the intention of making up for its shortcomings.

So to see such a reaction to a statue was quite a surprise but seems understandable given the historic events that were caused by the people who were inspired by and implemented his ideas one way or another. But does that make him a bad person himself?

I’m indifferent to this statue donation from China, and when I visited Trier for the first time a few years back, I was surprised to see so many Chinese people flocking to the house where he was born / grew up, which I understand has become a bit of a shrine for the fans of his ideas.

If anything I feel like I should read more about the man and his work as criticising him, simply based on the effects of the implementations of communism, without reading his work would be rightly classed as ignorant.

I’m quite curious to hear why you think it’s “so wrong”...
Indeed, he was not a bad person

1 - Marx suggested that Jews should be "isolated". Guess who admitted to being inspired by his ideas?

2 - He left his wife and children in poverty and they even faced hunger;

3 - He was an openly racist and depicted any non-white race as too primitive;

4 - Democracy was not part of his thought. Only a proletariat dictatorship could be acceptable.

Apart form that, 100 million people died in the countries where his theories were fully and faithfully implemented.

Since Communism killed 100M and his creator got a statue in Trier, why don't we build a statue in Braunau, Austria, to it's most prominent citizen? Nazism killed just 6M...
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Old 10.05.2018, 14:56
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Re: Statue of Marx unveiled in his German hometown..

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Religion, Politics and Race are all factors leading to mass murder, but usually because people are brainwashed into blaming others for their own misfortunes.

I do take offence of your use of the words Jewish lackey, it implies that Jews are responsible for something or other.
According to Marx, Jews were responsible for something....

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Parnell, to blame Marx for the actions of those who misinterpreted his ideas is just wrong. Before you say it, no I am not a Marxist. And if you've read Das Kapital and understood it, then I would question why you would challenge the ideas in it, because they are all pretty straight forward and accurately describe and challenge the reality of our capitalist based society.
Who misinterpreted? They were literally understood and fully implemented.
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Old 10.05.2018, 14:59
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Re: Statue of Marx unveiled in his German hometown..

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Parnell, to blame Marx for the actions of those who misinterpreted his ideas is just wrong.
People didn't misinterpret Marx. Marx misinterpreted people. HTH.
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Old 10.05.2018, 15:16
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Re: Statue of Marx unveiled in his German hometown..

Isn't it ironic that a church service was held to commemorate the 200th anniversary of a man who opposed religion?
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Old 10.05.2018, 15:26
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Re: Statue of Marx unveiled in his German hometown..

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Agreed, but then again in that period nobody understood human nature, the thinking of the time was that nature was a thing to overcome if we wanted to advance as a species, this was the time for experimenting with all kinds of -isms, Socialism, the "communist red new soviet man" version could have worked if people were ants. But taken into context this toxic kind of socialism could well be seen as a result of the religious wars between the 16th and 18th century, they alone almost depopulated the continent more than once, for instance the 30 year war caused the death of almost 50 percent of the population. Would socialism have existed in this form without religion? Marx himself said: "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people"
We will never know but it´s nice to speculate.
The 30 year war did absolutely not take out almost 50% of the continent. You might want to read up on that. Nor did any other war on whatever continent came close to such, as for percentage in a single country I'd say the triple alliance war was the most devastating to a country, it brought Paraquay from 525.000 down to just 221,000 persons. As for bigger numbers it must have been the old wars in China and the Mongolian Conquests (Tho they never exceeded the 10%)

Religion is not the sigh of the oppressed creature, religion to me is the result of mans need for answers and having a reason to exist and/or not accepting evolution and scientific reasons for things happening due to lack of knowledge (the old days) or due to the willingness to believe in how nature works.
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Old 10.05.2018, 15:29
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Re: Statue of Marx unveiled in his German hometown..

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I don't think anybody still seriously entertains the notion that Juncker is a profound thinker or a visionary European. He's just somebody who got ahead in life by doing as was expected of him.
I see him as an alcoholic socialist power-mongering disaster.
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Old 10.05.2018, 15:49
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Re: Statue of Marx unveiled in his German hometown..

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Indeed, he was not a bad person

1 - Marx suggested that Jews should be "isolated". Guess who admitted to being inspired by his ideas?
It was emancipation, but the argument swings both ways, I think I follow the thought that he was also living in an age where the Jewish stereotype was a scapegoat for all evils and he was also susceptible to those ideas, even when his own roots were also Jewish. Its as much an argument to take down statues of Wagner. Marx is still incredibly important historical and philosophical figure regardless of some of his regrettable ideas and texts. He wasn't as you ascribe him either; as being responsible for how his ideas were pushed out of context in the name of communism, lets blame the likes of Lenin and Stalin and Pol Pot.

No one is saying Marx was a particularly nice person either.

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Apart form that, 100 million people died in the countries where his theories were fully and faithfully implemented.

Since Communism killed 100M and his creator got a statue in Trier, why don't we build a statue in Braunau, Austria, to it's most prominent citizen? Nazism killed just 6M...
Because Adolf was simply a war monger and hate bringer and really was a mass murderer.
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