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  #61  
Old 22.06.2018, 10:58
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Re: Has Britain gone down the drain?

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Factually, probably true.

But this is coming uncomfortably close to justifying a panem et circenses attitude. Keep the plebs occupied with crap so they don't do anything that's genuinely dangerous. From there it's but a small step to argue that keeping people dumb and distracted is good for the state. Caligula must be smiling in his grave.


Well, I for one am happy that you have EF. Nobody knows what crap youd be up to if we wouldn't keep you busy...
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  #62  
Old 22.06.2018, 11:01
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Re: Has Britain gone down the drain?

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Policing, transport, infrastructure, etc... And people wonder why every trip, I can't wait to get back to Switzerland.



Number of population per police officer

Switzerland 210

Germany 296

England & Wales 302

Scotland 324

Source

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...olice_officers
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  #63  
Old 22.06.2018, 11:07
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Re: Has Britain gone down the drain?

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Number of population per police officer

Switzerland 1
ftfy
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  #64  
Old 22.06.2018, 11:08
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Re: Has Britain gone down the drain?

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I visit the UK about 3/4 times a year. Surely as a tourist or business traveler. However, taking walks through the not so rich parts of London recently did not give me the impression that the country is going down the drain. It seems way better than the first times I went there during the 90s...


I am aware that there was a recent rise in knife crime, but it honestly seems you are cherry picking facts to support your position no matter what and discount simple facts that are in your way.


Yes, I am German. I don't see why this disqualifies me of having an opinion. You certainly raised your opinion on my country multiple times before... the thing is that we are having the same sort of discussions in my country. Allegedly do all the refugees destroy Germany and people aren't safe to walk on the streets at night. A handful of truly terrible example crimes are always brought up to underline the point. The simple fact that despite taking in over a million refugees we are having the lowest crime rates in 30 years gets ignored. Because facts don't matter in this sort of discussion.
Trev I never even remotely said being German disqualifies you from having a opinion, I was simply curious about your level of direct investment and experience on this topic. I would, however, argue that your experience in this area vs people who visit more frequently and have family there in various areas of the country is limited.

I go to the UK a fair amount for business and family reasons and when I do I go out and mingle in bars, pubs and sometimes clubs a fair amount. I am not saying my opinion is in any way gospel, but I have certainly seen my fair share of stuff to form what I feel is a reasonably balanced view in the last two decades. That view is not that the UK as a whole is becoming a safer and more lawful place, to the point that I would ideally not want to raise kids there.

Last edited by Chuff; 22.06.2018 at 11:23.
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  #65  
Old 22.06.2018, 11:14
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Re: Has Britain gone down the drain?

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Number of population per police officer

Switzerland 210

Germany 296

England & Wales 302

Scotland 324

Source

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...olice_officers
The 198,684 number of 2017 should be amended to take account of the 2018 cuts of 20,000 police officers, though.

Don't know if that significantly affects the per head count, though. Did they just divide it by the total population with no weighting for metropolitan areas or what?
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  #66  
Old 22.06.2018, 23:22
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Re: Has Britain gone down the drain?

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While I am sure that the Ancient Greeks unsurprisingly had similar musings, it has no bearing on this specific discussion about the UK
Um... yeah. It does. The king is dead, long live the king etc etc.

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No-one who goes out partying at evening and night in the UK in major city centers can fail to see how overall levels of behaviour continues to deteriorate and uncontrolled and aggressive behaviour has become very common.


It is in no way getting more safe than the 70's and 80's, and "anyone who thinks otherwise needs their heads checking".

'Tis. Lots safer now than it was 25 years ago. Why so much UK-bashing? You decided not to live there any more.


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As someone who (until a few weeks ago) frequently has nights out in NW UK city centres, namely Manchester and Liverpool, I have a slightly different experience to the one you have given.

My opinion is that low level crime and fighting witnessed on a night out, has significantly decreased since my youth,
This.


This thread makes me mad and sad in equal measure. You're mostly all on the outside looking in from the vantage point of a kind of "survivor's bias". If that survivor had a chip on their shoulder and an axe to grind. But then I also firmly believe that public services are doing the very best they can under the circumstances. I've worked in the state sector for most of my adult life and with hundreds, probably thousands now, of the new-wave-hoolithugs that are apparently everywhere. That's not my UK. That's not what I see.
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  #67  
Old 23.06.2018, 00:40
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Re: Has Britain gone down the drain?

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This thread makes me mad and sad in equal measure. You're mostly all on the outside looking in from the vantage point of a kind of "survivor's bias". If that survivor had a chip on their shoulder and an axe to grind. But then I also firmly believe that public services are doing the very best they can under the circumstances.
You know that I respect you and your opinion. I'm purely speaking from personal experience and that of lifelong friends, not statistics or media. I have no chip on my shoulder, no axe to grind, and definitely no 'survivor's bias'. Crime in my area was far worse and more common in the 90's when the gangland wars between Manchester and Liverpool were at their peak.

My best mate retired from the police 18mths ago after serving for over 25yrs, with a the exception of a 3yr stint working with lifers in a men's prison. For the last 10mths, the police have been begging her to return because they're so short staffed.

I'm not prepared to go into more detail on a public forum, but what I've been told by her, and other friends who are still serving, gives me serious cause for concern. Only in March this year, a former leading PFEW rep (very recently retired) told me face to face that he firmly believes if the NHS is ever privatised, then the police will be next. Despite being a Conservative leaning voter himself, he said the only politician he had meetings with over the last 20yrs, that fully understood the issues and actions required, was David Milliband..."before he buggered off to America".

I totally agree that "public services are doing the very best they can under the circumstances", but we cannot ignore that those services, which are the bedrock of society, are being undermined and underfunded by the policies of successive governments. For anyone who doesn't believe there have been savage cuts to the policing budget, I recommend this link, with the ironic title 'investing in safety despite the cuts'. https://www.gmpcc.org.uk/news/invest...pite-the-cuts/
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  #68  
Old 23.06.2018, 11:45
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Re: Has Britain gone down the drain?

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Um... yeah. It does. The king is dead, long live the king etc etc.




'Tis. Lots safer now than it was 25 years ago. Why so much UK-bashing? You decided not to live there any more.




This.


This thread makes me mad and sad in equal measure. You're mostly all on the outside looking in from the vantage point of a kind of "survivor's bias". If that survivor had a chip on their shoulder and an axe to grind. But then I also firmly believe that public services are doing the very best they can under the circumstances. I've worked in the state sector for most of my adult life and with hundreds, probably thousands now, of the new-wave-hoolithugs that are apparently everywhere. That's not my UK. That's not what I see.
Your subjective opinion is likely worth at least as much as ours, and based on your previous posts I'm not even sure I would trust you to notice such things as you seem very "nice" (eg: mildly oblivious).

That you see anyone saying neative things about the UK and label it so simplistically as "UK bashing" tells me everything I need to know abut your objectiveness on this topic.

Last edited by Chuff; 23.06.2018 at 12:06.
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  #69  
Old 23.06.2018, 12:06
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Re: Has Britain gone down the drain?

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Your subjective opinion is likely worth at least as much as ours, and based on your previous posts I'm not even sure I would trust you to notice such things as you seem very "nice" (eg: mildly oblivious).

The fact you see it as "UK bashing" tells me everything I need to know.
To be fair, it's all subjective opinion but RufusB is actually on the ground in the UK seeing it on a daily basis from a public service employee's angle whereas we are all sitting around in Switzerland with our well-paid-expat goggles on seeing it from an occasional visitor's point of view. Or sucking up the "oh my god everything is awful" tabloid guff.
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  #70  
Old 23.06.2018, 12:17
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Re: Has Britain gone down the drain?

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To be fair, it's all subjective opinion but RufusB is actually on the ground in the UK seeing it on a daily basis from a public service employee's angle whereas we are all sitting around in Switzerland with our well-paid-expat goggles on seeing it from an occasional visitor's point of view. Or sucking up the "oh my god everything is awful" tabloid guff.
Everyone's opinion is subjective? You are on repeating exactly what I wrote in the first sentence. As for the "goggles", my family are teachers and civil servants who live in the North and South of the UK in very different areas of the UK, they are by and by positive people and largely think similar to as I do... I trust their balanced and objective views far more than I do people such as RufusB who I have seen posting on the forum irrationally and knee-jerkingly on a number of topics.

Last edited by Chuff; 23.06.2018 at 12:29.
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Old 23.06.2018, 12:31
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Re: Has Britain gone down the drain?

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Everyone's opinion is subjective? You are on repeating exactly what I wrote in the first sentence. As for the "goggles", my family are teachers and civil servants who live in the North and South of the UK in very different areas of the UK and largely think the same as I do... I know them and trust their balanced and objective views far more than I do people such as RufusB who I have seen posting on the forum irrationally and knee-jerkingly on a number of topics
Yes I am repeating what you said but with the difference the it’s ALL subjective but you seem to think your relatives’ opinions are objective just because they chime with your opinions. How do you know they’re not being irrational and knee-jerking?
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  #72  
Old 23.06.2018, 12:36
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Re: Has Britain gone down the drain?

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Yes I am repeating what you said but with the difference the it’s ALL subjective but you seem to think your relatives’ opinions are objective just because they chime with your opinions. How do you know they’re not being irrational and knee-jerking?
Not really, though I am sure that does have an influence. It's more because I know they are people who think logically, realistically and objectively... as I also generally try to do.

Last edited by Chuff; 23.06.2018 at 16:12. Reason: Clarity
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  #73  
Old 23.06.2018, 12:40
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Re: Has Britain gone down the drain?

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No, it's because I know they are rational people who think logically, realistially and objectively... as I also generally do. Unfortunately, I can't say the same for the majority of people I see posting on this forum.
But it's a fair enough estimate that 90% on the forum will swear blind that the people with the indisputably "objective" opinions coincidentally are those who have opinions closest to their own.

We're all victims of it...
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  #74  
Old 23.06.2018, 12:41
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Re: Has Britain gone down the drain?

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But it's a fair enough estimate that 90% on the forum will swear blind that the people with the indisputably "objective" opinions coincidentally are those who have opinions closest to their own.

We're all victims of it...
You are indeed a master (mistress?) of stating the obvious.

Last edited by Chuff; 23.06.2018 at 16:11.
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  #75  
Old 23.06.2018, 12:49
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Re: Has Britain gone down the drain?

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You are indeed a master (mistress?) of stating the obvious.
I do my best...

When it boils down to it your anecdotal evidence is just as correct as RufusB's and disputing it is pointless.

The statistics earlier in the thread suggest their own conclusion.

My personal experience of the UK as well as that of friends and family is that it's not as dire as the tabloids would have you believe. I have one friend with a child suffering from an ongoing condition which is being poorly managed by the NHS but one case is one case.

None of my friends are hyperventilating that it's not the place to bring up kids. Their own kids are doing well and are on course for decent exam results then on to Uni. No hysteria.
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  #76  
Old 23.06.2018, 12:54
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Re: Has Britain gone down the drain?

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I do my best...

When it boils down to it your anecdotal evidence is just as correct as RufusB's and disputing it is pointless.

The statistics earlier in the thread suggest their own conclusion.

My personal experience of the UK as well as that of friends and family is that it's not as dire as the tabloids would have you believe. I have one friend with a child suffering from an ongoing condition which is being poorly managed by the NHS but one case is one case.

None of my friends are hyperventilating that it's not the place to bring up kids. Their own kids are doing well and are on course for decent exam results then on to Uni. No hysteria.
I'm more than happy to agree to disagree, there is no need to try too hard to convince each other of anything.
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  #77  
Old 23.06.2018, 16:13
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Re: Has Britain gone down the drain?

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Number of population per police officer

Switzerland 210
18k police personnel(PP), 210 residents per PP. What population size does that require? And what is it in reality?

Some people better redo their first grade.

Btw check the link next to the number of PP in the Wiki page.

Regardless, with 18k the number of PP is roughly right according to the Beobachter.
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  #78  
Old 23.06.2018, 16:14
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Re: Has Britain gone down the drain?

Only with hesitation do I allow myself to touch on this topic, but having lived through the war years and the bombs and all the destruction first in Newcastle where the Germans bombed the shipyards and connecting railways and then to peace in London (my father was a Londoner) in July 1945. Those war years showed both a financial poverty and a fighting spirit (which I have no doubt was also present in Berlin for instance at that time).


So I have watched, seen and experienced how Britain has grown. This growth has always been in waves. The 40s and 50s were, as is well known, decades of utility - all that was to be had was of a quality which simply did the job. I'm talking of 'normal' people here, not the then also present moneyed class. These decades were also the time of street gangs, razors, bicycle chains, Teddy Boys, stolen goods, black marketing, smuggled cigarettes and so on. I lived with my parents in a council flat in Holloway in north London - not a pleasant place to have to get home to in the evenings and requiring a peep round the corner before advancing to the next street.


In the 60s things got rapidly better and life started to take on a different form in all ways. In 1960/61 I worked in Switzerland for the first time and could hardly believe the difference in 'lifestyle' (for want of a better word).
When in 1962 my new (Swiss) wife and I decided to return to London to live our greatest problem was finding somewhere even half-decent to live. But we were lucky and found a place in what is today the Borough of Haringey.


Today both Holloway (Islington) and Haringey have improved tremendously, as is in many cases old houses have been pulled down and many new areas have come into existence, certainly not of Swiss standards but sufficient to offer a good life for those who care. And that is the point - those who care. Unfortunately there is a massive division here.


So what do I know. Well, as I still have contact with quite a few of my old school friends, we are talking my generation here. I can say that they are all well and all did very well in life - much better than any of us had ever expected. They all have a house, all have moved outside London or to the far suburbs. Their children and their grandchildren are also looking forward to a good future because their parents, grandparents took a lot of trouble to get on a path which would in some form bring a reward. But, as we know, great swathes of people have no choice or chance and in today's rough economic climate and failing support systems things do look pretty bad.


My brother, retired now, lives in a small seaside town, one still not touched by multi-cultures as yet, has a good pension together with his wife and is typical of many of the older generation. But he complains of the collapse of society outside his own circle. He does voluntary work for local football clubs and tells me how young people wanting to play football and come to register sometimes cannot spell not only the name of the road they live in but even their own names. Clearly this not the general case but that never happened when I left school in 1953. We could all RRR.


What disturbs me today is to see the towns and cities in the north of England (and here Newcastle is really a great exception), where there are still rows and rows of houses with back lanes and back yards and junk and litter piled up and blowing in the wind. This in contrast to the south where life obviously is much more pleasant as well as being much sunnier!


I'm neither complaining nor praising, with all those millions of people in a country there just have to be differences but part of the soul of Britain is visibly slipping away.
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  #79  
Old 23.06.2018, 18:33
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Re: Has Britain gone down the drain?

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Has Britain gone down the drain?
Yes, but don't worry; so has the rest of the world.
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Old 24.06.2018, 11:41
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Re: Has Britain gone down the drain?

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Your subjective opinion is likely worth at least as much as ours, and based on your previous posts I'm not even sure I would trust you to notice such things as you seem very "nice" (eg: mildly oblivious).

That you see anyone saying neative things about the UK and label it so simplistically as "UK bashing" tells me everything I need to know abut your objectiveness on this topic.
I work full time in a UK state school. I know of what I speak. And while I'm sure you mean "nice" as a pejorative in this instance, I'll take it. You do, however, need a dictionary. What I am most definitely not, you presumptively arrogant man-child, is oblivious.

You don't live in the UK do you? Not only are you biased and subjective (from what I read in your posts) but utterly out of touch. As you would be, being a single (I assume) white (ditto) educated and well-compensated professional male wholly submerged in the Swiss lifestyle.

Cheers for the "irrational and knee-jerking". Oh dear... I've got tea all over my screen. And the emoji... bless.

So... just so this irrationally nice reactive irrelevant person has it straight: Richdog utterances are all logical, rational and objective? RufusB... nil points?

Last edited by RufusB; 24.06.2018 at 11:52.
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