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  #41  
Old 14.08.2018, 19:15
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Re: Major bridge collapse near Genoa

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A very clean cut

If you put pieces together, wouldn't you put the joints on top of a pillar instead of right after it?
Just wondering as a layman.
The joints have to go somewhere. Putting them on top of the pillar would make accommodation for expansion and flex less effective. The pillar is a triangle, which spreads the width of the section that doesn't need suspension.

I find those black patches all over the underside of the beams more worrying. They probably mean that the concrete was losing it's integrity, so they came up with a bandaid, possibly injecting epoxy underneath.

The videos seem to show a lightning strike on one pillar. If that energy went into the steel rebar, then it will have dissipated by boiling off the moisture in the concrete surrounding it. Not good, very, very not good.
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  #42  
Old 14.08.2018, 19:29
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Re: Major bridge collapse near Genoa

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The videos seem to show a lightning strike on one pillar. If that energy went into the steel rebar, then it will have dissipated by boiling off the moisture in the concrete surrounding it. Not good, very, very not good.
Witnesses state just that (that there was a lightning strike, and then it all crumbled).

Tom
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  #43  
Old 14.08.2018, 19:33
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Re: Major bridge collapse near Genoa

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Witnesses state just that (that there was a lightning strike, and then it all crumbled).

Tom
Wanna bet that they removed or interrupted the lightning protection during the renovations, and nobody actually checked that it was reinstalled correctly?

Perhaps the forensic examination will find it.

I wonder how they would test the earthing of the lightning protection? An Ohmmeter with one really, really long lead?


EDIT: I'm not a structural engineer, but there doesn't seem to be very much rebar in the damaged sections visible in some of those pictures.

Last edited by JagWaugh; 14.08.2018 at 19:54.
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  #44  
Old 14.08.2018, 20:27
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Re: Major bridge collapse near Genoa

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Collapsed during heavy rainfall so that might have something to do with it.
I read somewhere that there was subsidence on the foundation of the main pillar of the section that crumbled.

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How comes? Did you always suspect it'd collapse one day? Do you also get nervous driving through long tunnels?
I'm not great with heights. So I always have a vague feeling that things will fall out of the sky like planes and bridges. They are not "real" fears. Just irrational ones.

I don't mind the tunnels so much. But once you get into Genoa, the whole thing just always looked old, crowded, badly planned and not particular well maintained. It's very narrow going into the city, lots of connectors and heavily trafficated. This isn't new. I've had this feeling for at least 15, 20 years. I'm always happy to get out of Genoa. (Although Genoa is a lovely city with really good food.)


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Umm, you do realize that the Bologna ring road has been closed since last week?

Tom
Yeah. Traffic is going to be a mess.
However, I don't go into Bologna, I just go by it. So, I don't need the A14. I take the A1.

So, besides traffic being a mess, I think I should be Ok, no?
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  #45  
Old 14.08.2018, 20:31
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Re: Major bridge collapse near Genoa

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I wonder how they would test the earthing of the lightning protection? An Ohmmeter with one really, really long lead?
Electrodes that go into the ground with an ohm meter, the rest is mainly visual inspection due to it being impossible to measure proper since all (except the electrodes) is connected with permanent joints.
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  #46  
Old 14.08.2018, 21:04
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Re: Major bridge collapse near Genoa

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However, I don't go into Bologna, I just go by it. So, I don't need the A14. I take the A1.
When I go by it, I usually take the A14, so it depends on what 'by' means.

Tom
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  #47  
Old 14.08.2018, 21:22
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Re: Major bridge collapse near Genoa

Have been only once to Genoa and might have been on that bridge, cannot recall it now. My heart goes to all those who had lost their relatives in this horrible accident.

It seems like an accident was caused by lightning strike into a vulnerable part of structure that cracked in the weak point. Italian architecture is normally robust and can stand a test of time. What went wrong? Lack of proper maintenance? Normally bridges do not collapse like that unless serious structural problem. What a horrible way to lose one’s life. Hopefully we will get our answers soon and family of the victims their closure.
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  #48  
Old 14.08.2018, 21:39
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Re: Major bridge collapse near Genoa

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When I go by it, I usually take the A14, so it depends on what 'by' means.

Tom
Well I'm not going that way. But you can stay home! Don't need more traffic on the road.
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  #49  
Old 14.08.2018, 22:06
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Re: Major bridge collapse near Genoa

Was watching the CNN International coverage of this story this evening and their reporter Nick Robertson was reporting from the scene. It seems that he had been in Italy on personal business and was minutes away from driving across the bridge.
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  #50  
Old 14.08.2018, 22:36
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Re: Major bridge collapse near Genoa

More news.

"The highway operator said work to shore up its foundation was being carried out at the time of the collapse.

Repair work on the bridge was carried out in 2016, Reuters reports. Major repairs also took place in the 1990s.

A structural engineer who lectures at Genoa University, Antonio Brencich, warned in 2016 that there were problems with the bridge, Italian media report.

The bridge's designer, Riccardo Morandi (1902-1989) had miscalculated the "viscous deformation" - an ageing effect on reinforced concrete, Mr Brencich said.

"He was an engineer with great insight but lacking in practical calculations," the lecturer said."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45183624
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  #51  
Old 14.08.2018, 22:53
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Re: Major bridge collapse near Genoa

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...The bridge's designer, Riccardo Morandi (1902-1989) had miscalculated the "viscous deformation" - an ageing effect on reinforced concrete, Mr Brencich said.

"He was an engineer with great insight but lacking in practical calculations," the lecturer said."
Is there a list of bridges he designed? I'd like to avoid crossing them...
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  #52  
Old 15.08.2018, 07:55
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Re: Major bridge collapse near Genoa

Latest:

31 dead, 16 injured, 4-12 still missing.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45190735

Tom
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  #53  
Old 15.08.2018, 08:11
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Re: Major bridge collapse near Genoa

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I don't mind the tunnels so much. But once you get into Genoa, the whole thing just always looked old, crowded, badly planned and not particular well maintained. It's very narrow going into the city, lots of connectors and heavily trafficated. This isn't new.
I do mind tunnels in Italy. There are a few places where Italians start on the red light, crazy is not even the right word to describe what I've seen there. And trust me I am used with crazy drivers. The Italian drivers always surpass my darkest expectations.
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  #54  
Old 15.08.2018, 08:15
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Re: Major bridge collapse near Genoa

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The Italian drivers always surpass my darkest expectations.
Clearly, you have never been to Portugal.

Tom
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  #55  
Old 15.08.2018, 08:23
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Re: Major bridge collapse near Genoa

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Clearly, you have never been to Portugal.

Tom
Hehe, I've been to....enough places. What the heck is wrong with latin blood? It seems we just can't follow rules like everybody else.
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  #56  
Old 15.08.2018, 08:34
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Re: Major bridge collapse near Genoa

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Repair work on the bridge was carried out in 2016, Reuters reports. Major repairs also took place in the 1990s.

A structural engineer who lectures at Genoa University, Antonio Brencich, warned in 2016 that there were problems with the bridge, Italian media report.

The bridge's designer, Riccardo Morandi (1902-1989) had miscalculated the "viscous deformation" - an ageing effect on reinforced concrete, Mr Brencich said.

"He was an engineer with great insight but lacking in practical calculations," the lecturer said."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45183624
Blame it on the dead dude!

If this was known about in 2016 and the bridge collapsed in 2018 then I'm afraid someone else is to blame rather than the designer.

Makes you wonder in fact what the political fall out from this will be. Sure there'll be a witch hunt to find whoever is responsible, but I wonder how the populist government will jump on this opportunity?
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  #57  
Old 15.08.2018, 08:36
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Re: Major bridge collapse near Genoa

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Clearly, you have never been to Portugal. :eek
Dude, not only have I been to both countries, I actually had to learn how to drive on Portuguese roads - and the aggressiveness stayed with me.

But I can assure you, I won't be caught dead driving in Naples. Or Rome. My life flashed in front of my eyes. I thought I was going to die.


But back to topic,

This whole incident reminds me of a horrible accident that happened in Portugal a few decades ago, which ended up being responsible for a sudden government change in Portugal. 59 people died. In the end it was found out that it was lack of maintenance.

https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragédia_de_Entre-os-Rios

Infrastructures, specially maintaining infrastructures, are one of the things that end up falling back on the priority list rather fast. And this is not a specific south European problem.

The tragedy in Portugal did help to improve maintenance and control. I hope it will push for the same in Italy.
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Old 15.08.2018, 08:38
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Re: Major bridge collapse near Genoa

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Hehe, I've been to....enough places. What the heck is wrong with latin blood? It seems we just can't follow rules like everybody else.
I certainly prefer Italian drivers to Dutch or German drivers (or US drivers from anywhere except NewEngland).

Tom
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Old 15.08.2018, 09:14
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Re: Major bridge collapse near Genoa

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I do mind tunnels in Italy. There are a few places where Italians start on the red light, crazy is not even the right word to describe what I've seen there. And trust me I am used with crazy drivers. The Italian drivers always surpass my darkest expectations.
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I certainly prefer Italian drivers to Dutch or German drivers (or US drivers from anywhere except NewEngland).

Tom
Bridges normally do not collapse due to bad driving but rather errors in design and badly maintained structures.

Let’s hope that this accident will serve an example to other governments around the world to do carry out due diligence in maintaining their bridges.
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Old 15.08.2018, 09:24
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Re: Major bridge collapse near Genoa

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Bridges normally do not collapse due to bad driving but rather errors in design and badly maintained structures.

Let’s hope that this accident will serve an example to other governments around the world to do carry out due diligence in maintaining their bridges.
Of course not, that was just my personal "rant" since we were at that. It adds to the general unpleasantness of the roads though.
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