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  #61  
Old 21.08.2018, 18:57
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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I wasn't quoting you directly, just making a point. But substitute chicken pox for measles, and then remember how unpleasant and entirely avoidable it was, and you should start to see the answer...

"Vaccinate for" is essentially US English, so choose your side and prepare to wage war!
Then don't put it in " ", please!

I could make an endless list of all the unpleasant things I went through in my childhood and I tell you, they were much worse than the measles. I learnt to just get through them. Looking back, it was a pretty good idea.

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This is the kind of selfishness that gets on my nerves.

Some of us cannot be vaccinated. Some of us depend on herd immunity to avoid horrible repercussions that come with awful diseases which have not been eradicated yet.

I trust the vaccines to work (within their limitations), BUT NOT EVERYONE CAN HAVE THEM.

It's not about you. It's about protecting your fellow human being.
Well, I'm not completely altruistic and don't even pretend to be. Guess you are. Or is that only when you're on the demanding side?
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  #62  
Old 21.08.2018, 19:31
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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I could make an endless list of all the unpleasant things I went through in my childhood and I tell you, they were much worse than the measles
Lucky you.

From the WHO:

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Complications of measles include viral and bacterial pneumonias and severe diarrhoea. The disease can also lead to lifelong disabilities including brain damage, blindness and deafness.
and

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Measles kills more children than any other vaccine-preventable disease.
and

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Poorly nourished children and those whose immune systems have been weakened by HIV/AIDS or other diseases are severely at high risk of developing measles complication and death.
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  #63  
Old 21.08.2018, 22:36
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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I could make an endless list of all the unpleasant things I went through in my childhood and I tell you, they were much worse than the measles. I learnt to just get through them. Looking back, it was a pretty good idea.
Clue:

Stop eating piss-laden Cheerios.

P.S. You're welcome.

Tom
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Old 21.08.2018, 23:07
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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Then don't put it in " ", please!

I could make an endless list of all the unpleasant things I went through in my childhood and I tell you, they were much worse than the measles. I learnt to just get through them. Looking back, it was a pretty good idea.

Ok, so for you, other things were far more unpleasant than measles. But if a kid dies from measles, a pregnant woman looses her fetus, or someone just ends up disabled, then measles are bad for those people. So a good idea for you doesnít apply to others in different risk situations.

Iím old enough to have had all the childhood diseases - measles, mumps, chicken pox, rubella - before vaccines were available. And sure, none of them were that bad. But I grew up in a nice middle class home with good sanitation, a strong immune system and chicken soup.

Not everyone was so lucky.
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  #65  
Old 21.08.2018, 23:21
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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Ok, so for you, other things were far more unpleasant than measles. But if a kid dies from measles, a pregnant woman looses her fetus, or someone just ends up disabled, then measles are bad for those people. So a good idea for you doesnít apply to others in different risk situations.

Iím old enough to have had all the childhood diseases - measles, mumps, chicken pox, rubella - before vaccines were available. And sure, none of them were that bad. But I grew up in a nice middle class home with good sanitation, a strong immune system and chicken soup.

Not everyone was so lucky.
Are you presuming I tell anybody not to get vaccinated? Not at all, I thought it was very clear that what I'm saying, the same I'm actually always saying, is that each needs to make their own decision about this. A personal one. Not avoiding vaccination for some crazy end-of-world reasons or what ever is out there (I don't study that stuff) and not get vaccinated because someone says you have to protect your fellow human beings.

How do the pregnant woman say? My body is mine. Goes not only for woman and not only for pregnant ones.
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  #66  
Old 21.08.2018, 23:58
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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Iím old enough to have had all the childhood diseases - measles, mumps, chicken pox, rubella - before vaccines were available. And sure, none of them were that bad. But I grew up in a nice middle class home with good sanitation, a strong immune system and chicken soup.

Not everyone was so lucky.
Too true.

120yrs ago, the death rate amongst the under 5's was horrendous. Whilst doing a bit of reseach a couple of months ago, I found one couple in my family tree who lost 4 kids under 4yrs old, and their last child died when she was 7, all from diseases that are now easily curable, or that we have vaccinations against. The particular street they lived in (which is still standing) had good sanitation and an individual outside toilet. This leads me to believe that they must have contracted the diseases from other people / children.

My primary issue with anti-vaxxers is that, whilst they have made a personal decision, they do absolutely nothing to protect or warn the population at large that they could be incubating a disease that, whilst it would make them ill for a few weeks, could be fatal to people that they come in contact with 'in passing', such as people undergoing chemo. Does any anti-vaxxer think to cross the street if they see a pregnant woman, or someone who is clearly ill?
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  #67  
Old 22.08.2018, 00:42
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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...what I'm saying, the same I'm actually always saying, is that each needs to make their own decision about this. A personal one.
If the vaccine is optional, so be it. If the vaccine is mandatory, you have to be / have your children vaccinated. Whatever your personal opinions may be.

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How do the pregnant woman say? My body is mine. Goes not only for woman and not only for pregnant ones.
As far as I know, pregnancy is not a disease, nor is it contagious.
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Old 22.08.2018, 00:48
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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If the vaccine is optional, so be it. If the vaccine is mandatory, you have to be / have your children vaccinated. Whatever your personal opinions may be.
Yet it isn't mandatory.
And I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything either. Except: Take your own decision. No idea why this is so un-understandable.

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As far as I know, pregnancy is not a disease, nor is it contagious.
And yet people want to interfere there too.
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  #69  
Old 22.08.2018, 01:29
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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Yet it isn't mandatory.
And I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything either. Except: Take your own decision. No idea why this is so un-understandable.
I think we all have a certain responsibility toward other people, even if we know nothing about them. If there's a way to avoid horrendous diseases -- and yes, measles, for example, can be horrendous -- afflicting others in the world because you have taken action to protect not only them but also yourself, at minimum risk to yourself... why wouldn't you do that?

This is part of what sets humans apart from other animals.

In case you were wondering, this is what smallpox used to look like. Sorry if the image disturbs or disgusts you. I thought it preferable to showing a child who had died from the disease. I can't imagine why anybody would prefer to see smallpox still infecting children.



It's not cool to refuse vaccinations just because one can, to make some political point about personal sanctity. Maybe it's just me, and I'm not getting something that's obvious to everybody else.
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Old 22.08.2018, 01:33
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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I was being sarcastic. Although it does almost seem like a miracle - the chances to get Hepatitis B was a lot bigger in my life than many of the illnesses I'm actually vaccinated for (against).
Actually, Hepatitis A and Hepatitis B vaccines are optional in a significant part of the world where these viruses are not endemic. However, these vaccines are some of the most commonly recommended to people when they start traveling abroad. And many people have this vaccines as a consequence of their occupation; if you work in doctor's offices, hospitals, diagnostic labs or handle human tissue samples for research purposes; your employer has probably paid for you to get vaccinated against Hep A/Hep B.
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Old 22.08.2018, 01:58
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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Yet it isn't mandatory.
And I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything either. Except: Take your own decision. No idea why this is so un-understandable.
Whether or not you get a flu jab or other vaccine that only protects you is your decision. The ones which are hotly debated here are the ones for which almost the entire community must be vaccinated in order to protect its members. Therefore it ceases to be a personal decision and is instead an important public health measure, like public sanitation and health inspectors.

rant/ In addition to the much higher child mortality rates that have already been mentioned, serious child morbidity was also much higher. Birth defects used to be really common and not at all random; outbreaks of rubella inevitably led to a larger percentage of live births with neurological and other deficits. Even if the mother had had the vaccine and was asymptomatic, the presence of the virus during certain fetal developmental periods caused severe birth defects. Therefore the rubella vaccine is now deemed mandatory, regardless of whether the disease is severe or virulent, or if the survival rate is high in adults and children. The vaccine is only useful to the vulnerable population if the circulating incidence of the virus is nearly 0. This means EVERYONE who are medically able should be vaccinated.

Seriously, it's called *public* health for a reason. /rant
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  #72  
Old 22.08.2018, 02:03
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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In case you were wondering, this is what smallpox used to look like. Sorry if the image disturbs or disgusts you. I thought it preferable to showing a child who had died from the disease. I can't imagine why anybody would prefer to see smallpox still infecting children.
And if they survived, they would carry those visible scars for life, which also made social interaction difficult in most cultures.
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  #73  
Old 22.08.2018, 08:13
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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Are you presuming I tell anybody not to get vaccinated? Not at all, I thought it was very clear that what I'm saying, the same I'm actually always saying, is that each needs to make their own decision about this. A personal one. Not avoiding vaccination for some crazy end-of-world reasons or what ever is out there (I don't study that stuff) and not get vaccinated because someone says you have to protect your fellow human beings.

How do the pregnant woman say? My body is mine. Goes not only for woman and not only for pregnant ones.
Talking about pregnancy. Before getting pregnant I've done a test to find out whether I had rubeola or not when I was child. I had my medical record with the others but for some reasons this one didn't show up there and my mom thought I had it too (but she was always confused by my brother's things so I didn't want to believe her without any proof). I really didn't want to let anything to "fate" (except for, of course, things I couldn't influence directly). It turned out I too had the bloody thing, but it was very mild in my case...so she knew her stuff, as always. If not, I would have gotten myself vaccinated.
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  #74  
Old 22.08.2018, 09:30
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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Yet it isn't mandatory.
And I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything either. Except: Take your own decision. No idea why this is so un-understandable.
Is it cultural? I can understand someone being swayed because they've spent too long on the internet reading articles by quacks but just to not do it because it's 'your choice'.

Is that why Switzerland needs a "Good samaritan" law to force people to to a fellow human being when in need?

I'm not having a go but I don't quite get the mindset here.
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Old 22.08.2018, 09:55
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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I think we all have a certain responsibility toward other people, even if we know nothing about them. If there's a way to avoid horrendous diseases -- and yes, measles, for example, can be horrendous -- afflicting others in the world because you have taken action to protect not only them but also yourself, at minimum risk to yourself... why wouldn't you do that?

This is part of what sets humans apart from other animals.

In case you were wondering, this is what smallpox used to look like. Sorry if the image disturbs or disgusts you. I thought it preferable to showing a child who had died from the disease. I can't imagine why anybody would prefer to see smallpox still infecting children.

It's not cool to refuse vaccinations just because one can, to make some political point about personal sanctity. Maybe it's just me, and I'm not getting something that's obvious to everybody else.
yes, I agree. the goal of vaccination is to make sure that the disease will not exist anymore. it is not about the individual.
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  #76  
Old 22.08.2018, 10:17
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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Yet it isn't mandatory.
And I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything either. Except: Take your own decision. No idea why this is so un-understandable.


And yet people want to interfere there too.
"Take your own decision" is a valid argument as long as your decision doesn't impact anyone else. When your decision potentially impacts negatively a great number of people around you it shouldn't be your decision at all. If you lived in the amazon on your own, do whatever you want, couldn't care less. But as long as you want to live in a developed, civilized society, there's a certain price to be paid. Basic logic.
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  #77  
Old 22.08.2018, 11:15
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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Is it cultural? I can understand someone being swayed because they've spent too long on the internet reading articles by quacks but just to not do it because it's 'your choice'.

Is that why Switzerland needs a "Good samaritan" law to force people to to a fellow human being when in need?

I'm not having a go but I don't quite get the mindset here.
Don't think it matters. The net result is that Switzerland has got one of the highest uptakes of vaccinations in Europe. Who cares how they achieve that?

Even Italy just recently revoked its ruling that kids need to provide proof of vaccination history before starting state school. Seemed a bit draconian but I guess most parents get the message that it's a good thing.
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  #78  
Old 22.08.2018, 11:28
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

I'm a member of the Flat Earth Society. Bit of a laugh actually and I love to wind some people up by telling them why I'm right and they are wrong and the earth is flat and not round.

I know really that it is round but it does take a couple of pompous people down a peg or two when they lose their rag trying to prove they're right!

For balance I'm also a member of the 100 country club, so have been all asquare the world
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  #79  
Old 22.08.2018, 12:01
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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Don't think it matters. The net result is that Switzerland has got one of the highest uptakes of vaccinations in Europe. Who cares how they achieve that?
I thought it was lower. The WHO target is 95% but I read that it was 87% in 2017 for Switzerland which is pretty low (lower than India) but another chart shows 95%.

And:

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In a long-term outbreak between 2006 and 2009, Switzerland reached the highest measles rate in Europe with 4,371 registered cases.
Here and Here
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Old 22.08.2018, 12:03
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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For balance I'm also a member of the 100 country club, so have been all asquare the world
Completely off-topic:

Cool. I've no idea how many I've been to. I ought to add it up but probably nowhere near 100.

Which was your favourite to visit and what was your least favourite?
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