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  #121  
Old 23.08.2018, 16:38
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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Sure, it's both. But for this the aspect of a right is key, it's not just some kind of permission you can suspend relatively easily (as can happen with a drivers license, for example).
Actually, suspension of the right to attend school does happen quite frequently and serendipitously, "suspension" is exactly the right work to use! If a student can be suspended for behaviour that breaches school rules or guidelines, then why not exclude students who don't comply with public health rules or guidelines? We're talking about public schools, after all, where the health of the public should be paramount.
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  #122  
Old 23.08.2018, 16:50
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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Actually, suspension of the right to attend school does happen quite frequently and serendipitously, "suspension" is exactly the right work to use! If a student can be suspended for behaviour that breaches school rules or guidelines, then why not exclude students who don't comply with public health rules or guidelines? We're talking about public schools, after all, where the health of the public should be paramount.
A suspension does not normally mean that the pupil is permanently excused from having to attend any school at all, but that the pupil either returns to the school from which he or she was suspended (after an appropraite time has passed), or is sent to a different school.

If you want to apply that to vaccinations, it might mean that certain schools might be more tolerant than others and thus collect the pupils being rejected elsewhere due to lack of vaccnnations. Cue all the consequences that might have including risk of an outbreak in said school.

In fact I believe that a truly tolerant society can only work if there is space for volunatry segregation (including living with the consequences thereof). So actually a good thing.
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  #123  
Old 23.08.2018, 16:51
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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A suspension does not normally mean that the pupil is permanently excused from having to attend any school at all, but that the pupil either returns to the school from which he or she was suspended (after an appropraite time has passed), or is sent to a different school.

If you want to apply that to vaccinations, it might mean that certain schools might be more tolerant than others and thus collect the pupils being rejected elsewhere due to lack of vaccnnations. Cue all the consequences that might have including risk of an outbreak in said school.
Karma Comprehensive...
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  #124  
Old 23.08.2018, 17:14
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

Aren't most un-vaccinated children home-taught?

I thought this was normally the case as the parents obviously know more than the experts.
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  #125  
Old 23.08.2018, 17:17
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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A suspension does not normally mean that the pupil is permanently excused from having to attend any school at all, but that the pupil either returns to the school from which he or she was suspended (after an appropraite time has passed), or is sent to a different school.

If you want to apply that to vaccinations, it might mean that certain schools might be more tolerant than others and thus collect the pupils being rejected elsewhere due to lack of vaccnnations. Cue all the consequences that might have including risk of an outbreak in said school.

In fact I believe that a truly tolerant society can only work if there is space for volunatry segregation (including living with the consequences thereof). So actually a good thing.
Permanent exclusion from school is always a possibility, of course, if very rare. But your point is good. And if there were to be a couple of schools with somewhat laxer admission criteria with regard to vaccinations, it would be interesting to see how their reputation and ranking (or simply popularity with parents) would fare. They would probably be driven to close in a relatively short time.

In Switzerland, though, parents generally can't choose a public school for their kids; they're stuck with their local school, so the question wouldn't arise.

Perhaps another way to look at this is the speed limits analogy. Speed limits are imposed on public roads, supposedly as a public health (and safety) measure. They are legally enforceable, and slavishly enforced in Switzerland. Anybody disagreeing with the situation but still wanting/needing to drive has two choices: 1.) set aside their disagreement and play along; no harm to anyone, or 2.) disregard the speed limits and do what the hell they like, in which case they will be punished repeatedly and eventually lose the privilege of driving. This "ultimate" sanction would be imposed for reasons of, guess what, public health/safety.
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  #126  
Old 23.08.2018, 17:28
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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Perhaps another way to look at this is the speed limits analogy. Speed limits are imposed on public roads, supposedly as a public health (and safety) measure. They are legally enforceable, and slavishly enforced in Switzerland. Anybody disagreeing with the situation but still wanting/needing to drive has two choices: 1.) set aside their disagreement and play along; no harm to anyone, or 2.) disregard the speed limits and do what the hell they like, in which case they will be punished repeatedly and eventually lose the privilege of driving. This "ultimate" sanction would be imposed for reasons of, guess what, public health/safety.
I don't think the analogy is applicable because you have to send kids to school. It's a duty. You don't have to drive. It's a priveledge, and if you don't agree with the highway code the best thing to do is to hand in your driving licencse and stop driving. In fact when you pass your driving test you need to sign a document that bacsicaly says you agree to abide by all the ruies of the road, including those that are yet to be invented. So it can indeed happen that at some point in the future a new rule will be introiduced that you disagree and thus not driving is the only solution if you don't want to fight the authorities.

So if we have a situation where

1) vacinations are not legally enforcable, or govt doesn't want to enforce them (for whatever reason)
2) school attendance is obligatory,

The only solution to this contradiction I can see is providing schools that either donh't ask questions, or accept un-vaccinated children.

If anti-vax parents truly believed what they said, then surely they should welcome such schools, not boycott them. Surely this would be the ultimate test of walking the talk?
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  #127  
Old 23.08.2018, 17:29
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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Aren't most un-vaccinated children home-taught?

I thought this was normally the case as the parents obviously know more than the experts.
There's not much to be found on Google correlating those two statistics. Did you have any luck?
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  #128  
Old 23.08.2018, 19:49
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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There's not much to be found on Google correlating those two statistics. Did you have any luck?
It was a joke....

Either it was a poor one or you were too far outside my intended and anticipated audience to get it.

Please don't tell me you really googled for statistics?
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  #129  
Old 23.08.2018, 20:03
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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The only solution to this contradiction I can see is providing schools that either donh't ask questions, or accept un-vaccinated children.

If anti-vax parents truly believed what they said, then surely they should welcome such schools, not boycott them. Surely this would be the ultimate test of walking the talk?
Surely anti-vax parents whose children were not vaccinated would prefer a school where every child except theirs was vaccinated?

They're not arguing that the vaccine does not work - they appreciate it does but that can produce serious side-effects according to a discredited doctor and others.
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  #130  
Old 23.08.2018, 20:53
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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It was a joke....

Either it was a poor one or you were too far outside my intended and anticipated audience to get it.

Please don't tell me you really googled for statistics?
I'd go with the former rather than the latter but, yes, I did pick up on the "joke".

Out of curiosity I did look for some further info because it's not THAT ridiculous a statement but could only find info for the US.
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  #131  
Old 23.08.2018, 21:16
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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Don't think it matters. The net result is that Switzerland has got one of the highest uptakes of vaccinations in Europe. Who cares how they achieve that?
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Some stats include all possible vaccinations and their uptake in their respective countries and others concentrate on the baseline which are most commonly offered around the globe.

I guess as this thread is about measles, it should be that stat that applies, which the OECD puts at 95% in Switzerland in 2017.
I found some more info. Apparently the take-up rate for the MMR vaccine varies from area to area. In 2015, it was 93% for Geneva but as low as 50% in other areas.
In 2017:

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As a consequence of these outbreaks and increased population awareness, coverage rate for two MMR doses among 2-year old children has slightly increased since 2005 to 86% [6], which is still considerably below the WHO target of 95% coverage. Moreover, coverage rates vary strongly between language zones and cantons ranging from 50 to 93%
Here which also cites some possible reasons including wanting a 'natural' healthy lifestyle.

Anyway these stats put Switzerland's take-up of the MMR vaccine lower than a lot of developing countries such as Indonesia.

Germany is much lower though.
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  #132  
Old 23.08.2018, 21:27
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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I found some more info. Apparently the take-up rate for the MMR vaccine varies from area to area. In 2015, it was 93% for Geneva but as low as 50% in other areas.
In 2017:



Here which also cites some possible reasons including wanting a 'natural' healthy lifestyle.

Anyway these stats put Switzerland's take-up of the MMR vaccine lower than a lot of developing countries such as Indonesia.

Germany is much lower though.
I guess you can get statistics to say whatever you want if you have a sample size of 32 subjects over 4 cantons.
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  #133  
Old 23.08.2018, 21:39
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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I guess you can get statistics to say whatever you want if you have a sample size of 32 subjects over 4 cantons.
"I know it has worked for millions of years"

Well, actually you mindless twat, it hasn't.

Tom
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  #134  
Old 23.08.2018, 21:40
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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Karma Comprehensive...
Post of the Day.

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  #135  
Old 24.08.2018, 08:28
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

Anti vaccine myths are being promoted by social media bots and Russian trolls, study finds.

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  #136  
Old 24.08.2018, 09:02
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

It's ALL the fault of the Russians!

Tom
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  #137  
Old 24.08.2018, 09:03
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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It's ALL the fault of the Russians!

Tom
Spotty, snotty and feverish Russians...
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  #138  
Old 24.08.2018, 09:05
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

The fall back blame card or a real threat to the world? The real culprits [Anti-Vaxxers] are gullible and stupid people who believe everything they read on the internet.


https://www.theguardian.com/society/...ion-on-twitter





Already posted oops.
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  #139  
Old 24.08.2018, 10:01
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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...but me personally (and I'd like to think a lot of others) have never had to make a decision where: "wait, we haven't considered the curvature of the earth" was said and would change the outcome.
Many, many times...on an almost weekly basis...I had to explain to my clients why the route from Europe to Japan was faster if you flew from Helsinki as opposed to many other European airports. My client company negotiated a corporate fare with Finnair because of this time saving and short connection time.
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  #140  
Old 24.08.2018, 10:08
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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I guess you can get statistics to say whatever you want if you have a sample size of 32 subjects over 4 cantons.
The statistics are not from this study.

The small number of subjects was for interview only.

Please show me the statistics which show that 95% of Swiss children are vaccinated against measles.
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