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  #141  
Old 24.08.2018, 10:13
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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Please show me the statistics which show that 95% of Swiss children are vaccinated against measles.
Err... in your link here. (Look at the graph in your second "here")





(Just checking; you're not joking again, are you? )
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  #142  
Old 24.08.2018, 10:13
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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Many, many times...on an almost weekly basis...I had to explain to my clients why the route from Europe to Japan was faster if you flew from Helsinki as opposed to many other European airports. My client company negotiated a corporate fare with Finnair because of this time saving and short connection time.
The earth is flat.

It's time which is curved.
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  #143  
Old 24.08.2018, 10:20
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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Many, many times...on an almost weekly basis...I had to explain to my clients why the route from Europe to Japan was faster if you flew from Helsinki as opposed to many other European airports. My client company negotiated a corporate fare with Finnair because of this time saving and short connection time.
Thus my initial exception: unless you work in the aerospace industry, including people who have to route flights.


Personally I fly 10-20 times a month. All I care about is looking at the booking: Time of departure, time of arrival, time of flight, and maybe time of connection. What happens in between is irrelevant to me other than movies and Bloody Mary's :P
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  #144  
Old 24.08.2018, 10:23
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

According to the latest interim results from the Swiss National Vaccination Coverage Survey; SNVCS, the current rates of measles vaccination are:
87.0% for babies and toddlers, 91.1% for children and 92.4% for adolescents. This shows a slight increase during the monitoring period 2014 - 2016.

Taken from here.
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  #145  
Old 24.08.2018, 10:33
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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Err... in your link here. (Look at the graph in your second "here")
The difference is because it's different age groups.

93% of two years olds have been vaccinated.

The number of vaccinated young adults rose from 10% to 87% between 2012 and 2015.

So yes, things are improving dramatically after a not so good record.

To those here who feel that getting measles as a child (and obviously the ease at which it is passed on - being the most infectious disease on record), is something that only affects oneself, the last recorded death from measles was last year.

A young man with leukaemia and a very weakened immune system (and hence a less effective measles vaccine too) contracted measles and dies from lung failure.

One of my son's friend had leukaemia last year (aged eight) and one of the main concerns of the parents was that whilst the hospital was doing everything they could to fight the cancer, there was a real risk he would die from contracting another disease due to his weakened immune system.

Thankfully he is okay now.

Source
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  #146  
Old 24.08.2018, 10:45
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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The earth is flat.

It's time which is curved.


Tom
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  #147  
Old 24.08.2018, 12:15
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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[some lunatic crazy heliocentric illustration with a flat Earth]
Tom
Yeah, totally bonkers when every child knows we live inside a concave hollow earth and mass gets compressed the further you travel to the center of the universe. It is very easy to proof why the concave hollow earth is the true form of our world: It is easy to go toward the center, as we see by space probes like Voyager, but very difficult to go to the so called center of the earth, which is actually the outside of our world. The Kola Superdeep Borehole is only 12km deep. Airplanes fly presumably higher.

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  #148  
Old 24.08.2018, 12:28
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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Russia trolls 'spreading vaccination misinformation' to create discord
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45294192
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  #149  
Old 24.08.2018, 12:33
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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Surely anti-vax parents whose children were not vaccinated would prefer a school where every child except theirs was vaccinated?

They're not arguing that the vaccine does not work - they appreciate it does but that can produce serious side-effects according to a discredited doctor and others.
Not sure wherer you're getting your inforrmation from, but most anti-vax people I have talked to have indeed claimed that vaccines don't work as intended, that the science is flawed and that they are a hoax to make money for big pharma (or variants of that theory).

So surely the best test to find out whether they are trolling or indeed believe this, would be to give them an opportunity to walk the talk.

If they do believe vaccines work, i don't see any reason why they wouldn't use them.
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  #150  
Old 24.08.2018, 12:43
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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Not sure wherer you're getting your inforrmation from, but most anti-vax people I have talked to have indeed claimed that vaccines don't work as intended, that the science is flawed and that they are a hoax to make money for big pharma (or variants of that theory).
.
People who talk to me about it tell me it's they're afrid their child will get autism or some other condition from vaccines.

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If they do believe vaccines work, i don't see any reason why they wouldn't use them.

See above
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  #151  
Old 24.08.2018, 12:44
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

That is only part of the deal. As a good troll you kindle the fire on both sides:

"But instead of picking a side, researchers said, the trolls and bots they programmed hurled insults at both pro- and anti-vaccine advocates. Their only intent, the study concluded, seemed to be to raise the level of hostility."

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/23/h...er=rss&emc=rss
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  #152  
Old 24.08.2018, 12:46
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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That is only part of the deal. As a good troll you kindle the fire on both sides:

"But instead of picking a side, researchers said, the trolls and bots they programmed hurled insults at both pro- and anti-vaccine advocates. Their only intent, the study concluded, seemed to be to raise the level of hostility."

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/23/h...er=rss&emc=rss
Sounds like the EF then.
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  #153  
Old 24.08.2018, 12:52
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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Sounds like the EF then.

Not with the anti-vaccine thread though.

All the members who are not pro-vaccine, apart from Curley, have been banned from the forum for one reason or another so it's a bit of a one-sided argument mainly discussing semantics.
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  #154  
Old 24.08.2018, 13:13
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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People who talk to me about it tell me it's they're afraid their child will get autism or some other condition from vaccines.
How do you get into discussions like that? When mine was small, the usual line was

"Will you be at the park later?"
"No, he's due at the doctor for his jabs."
"Oh, right, see you tomorrow."

And variations of that depending on who you were talking/arranging with.

The only notable discussion about vaccinations I ever had with another parent was:
"Do you think they need to get the tick jab?"
"Dunno, is there a risk on this side of the lake?"
"I'll ask the doctor and let you know."

How do you get into those discussions about autism without sounding like a nosey-parker, or does the parent immediately go off on one as soon as you hint at vaccines?

I tend to avoid those types.
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  #155  
Old 24.08.2018, 13:19
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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Yeah, totally bonkers when every child knows we live inside a concave hollow earth and mass gets compressed the further you travel to the center of the universe. It is very easy to proof why the concave hollow earth is the true form of our world: It is easy to go toward the center, as we see by space probes like Voyager, but very difficult to go to the so called center of the earth, which is actually the outside of our world. The Kola Superdeep Borehole is only 12km deep. Airplanes fly presumably higher.

more explanation of this theory here ...

https://wizard.gen.nz/ideas/turning-...se-inside-out/

for fear of stating the obvious, all that has happened here is that somebody has done is inverted the axes of a polar reference system. A consequence of that is you get a dimensional shrinking that makes light follow curved paths etc, all of which looks uncannily like the Lorentz Transformation, and if you want to be pedantic, like the fiddle factors of pre- Einsteinian concepts of space-time. Yet you'd be surprised at the number of people, including such who claim to be scientists, who don't at all get it, and refuse to even entertain the notion that as a frame of reference, it actually works.

Last edited by amogles; 24.08.2018 at 13:35.
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  #156  
Old 24.08.2018, 13:49
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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How do you get into discussions like that?

I tend to avoid those types.
Family (through-marriage) being led-astray by strong-willed and crackpot friends.

We can't always avoid everyone.
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  #157  
Old 24.08.2018, 14:03
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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People who talk to me about it tell me it's they're afraid their child will get autism or some other condition from vaccines.
So why didn't I or anyone else I know get autism?

Granted, autism didn't exist when I was a kid.

Tom
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  #158  
Old 24.08.2018, 14:21
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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Thus my initial exception: unless you work in the aerospace industry, including people who have to route flights.


Personally I fly 10-20 times a month. All I care about is looking at the booking: Time of departure, time of arrival, time of flight, and maybe time of connection. What happens in between is irrelevant to me other than movies and Bloody Mary's :P
-Plotting your course from Brisbane to Honolulu on any sea-going vessel

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  #159  
Old 24.08.2018, 15:28
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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So if we have a situation where

1) vacinations are not legally enforcable, or govt doesn't want to enforce them (for whatever reason)
2) school attendance is obligatory,

The only solution to this contradiction I can see is providing schools that either donh't ask questions, or accept un-vaccinated children.

If anti-vax parents truly believed what they said, then surely they should welcome such schools, not boycott them. Surely this would be the ultimate test of walking the talk?
Actually those schools exist already.

Anthrophosophical schools (ASS) are called Rudolf-Steiner-Schule here, and Waldorf-Schule in Germany and Austria. I haven't found any numbers for CH but their vaccination rates in Germany are beolow 80% today, and in at least one case as low as 25% a few years ago according to this enquiry directed at the citiy government of Frankfurt. You can easily find tons of cases, especially in Germany, where they were the source of an outbreak, or a crucial breeding pot.

One particularly crass incident took place in spring 2008 when an outbreak was registered in Switzerland. The regular schools got their pupils vaccinated in a hurry so everything seemed under control, but the Rudolf-Steiner in Muttenz (BL) didn't react at all. Pretty soon 20 out of 120 pupils were at home in bed but still no measures were taken by the school.

Instead they attended some music convention in Salzburg, Austria, along with other ASS's from all over the Europe. One week later the first measle cases were registered in Wien and Innsbruck. It wasn't long until the number of cases required a special action plan to keep the football Euro 2008 doable (it was co-hosted by Austria and Switzerland in that year).

Germany and Norway came next, the outbreaks were also centered in towns of attending ASS's. Lörrach, Rosenheim, and Tübingen, all cities with an ASS with pupils who attended the music convention. At least the Germans reacted by temporarily closing them.

All in all 260 cases were traced to a single ASS pupil from Muttenz. Experts were even questioning the practicability of the (football) Euro 2008, hence the action plans.

As for the vaccination rate:
I don't see how you get 95% for Switzerland (yet, hopefully) unless you rely on 1-shot numbers.
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Old 24.08.2018, 15:33
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Re: Thanks anti-vaxxers, you twats

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As for the vaccination rate:
I don't see how you get 95% for Switzerland (yet, hopefully) unless you rely on 1-shot numbers.
You'll have to ask the OECD, that's the figure that has been bandied about on the thread up to now.


EDIT, forgot PaddyG's figures, too.
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