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Old 19.10.2018, 20:56
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Re: Khashoggi in Saudi Embassy.

As for targeted killings, may I remind everybody about this 2015 article in "The Intercept": https://theintercept.com/drone-paper...ation-complex/ that describes in great detail how in the end, the POTUS must sign the death-warrant for those at the receiving end of a targeted killing (and that's probably the reason why people - IMO rightly - assume that MBS personally sealed Mr Khashoggi's fate).

They also happen quite frequently, in the case of the US.

President Trump even went as far as pointing this out to a journalist:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.d0c5425e14e3

The KSA violated a number of "rules" when this particular hit was carried out:

The first rule of targeted killings is: make it quick.
We do award our meat-providing animals a quick and painless death (by law), so we can at least do the same for our enemies.
(Setting aside the discussion about Halal meat for a moment)

The second rule is: do not place yourself in the kill zone.
This goes two ways. Can you imagine the US killing a US citizen in a US embassy? Also, the people who execute the death-sentence should be as removed (in the power-structure) from the one who signs it (POTUS in that case) as possible. Can you imagine Trump sending people from his secret-service detail to off some schmuck in a foreign country? Which is literally what happened in this case.

The third rule is:
Make it look like somebody else could have done it.
When Israel killed some Iranian nuclear scientists, not only did they do it in Iran, they also made sure it couldn't be directly traced back to them (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclea...assassinations)
Also, it helped that nobody in the West wanted Iran to have "the bomb", so it was "OK-ish" for most people.

So, I completely agree to the argument that this a major case of hypocrisy (but we're so used to it, we hardly notice it anymore).
But the KSA was also incredibly stupid, amateurish and downright reckless in the way this killing was carried out.

The fiancé of Mr Khashoggi is friends with a personal advisor of President Erdogan. She didn't call the police when her fiancé did not come out of the embassy. She called her friend.

And make no mistake: Erdogan is going to milk this for weeks and use it to paint a better picture of himself in the West: He's the good guy now, for once!
People will ignore the fact that after the failed coup, thousand of his own citizens disappeared in various prisons, without a trace.
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  #62  
Old 19.10.2018, 22:05
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Re: Khashoggi in Saudi Embassy.

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It must be clear I'm not attempting to justify any of the actions, in fact I find these abhorrent, I'm simply pointing out that there is a disconnect between the media handling of Saudi Arabia in the past and now which has not been satisfactorily explained.
Trump is on their side so the rest of the Western media must prove how moral, decent, blah blah they are (unlike Trump). Hypocrisy as usual.

But really, everything is so politicised and depending on certain countries' interests in the area....why surprising? I never believed they're fair or correct in their coverage.Everything was dictated by political interests.
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  #63  
Old 19.10.2018, 22:16
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Re: Khashoggi in Saudi Embassy.

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The issue is that the Western media has been extremely tolerant of Saudi behaviour up until now which is includes :
- Beheadings
- Crucifictions
- Disappearances
- Torture
- Grisly killings
- Atrocities in Yemen.
- promoting terrorism
- etc.

So, again, what is new about the alleged Khashoggi incident that has caused the media to whip up "moral" outrage now when it has been remarkably silent in the past ?

Is it, as you have suggested, because it was an assassination ? Surely not. These happen all the time and are hardly mentioned.
Is it then because it happened in an embassy building ? This would certainly be at least a breach of diplomatic protocol but could not alone explain the reaction.
Is it then because there was torture involved ? This is naturally unpleasant but is not new and has been useful in the past for "special renditions" on behalf of Western governments.
Is it because the body was dismembered ? Nasty, but how many of the 40 children killed in the school bus incident of 9.August 2018 were not "dismembered" by shrapnel from a 220Kg bomb ?
Is it because he was applying for divorce papers ? Really ?

As for the Reaper drones, maybe the Saudis will heed the advice you've given and not use them in populated areas in selected foreign countries. But, again, assassination caused by them (and collateral damage - wedding parties etc.) seem to be exempt from the media attention, whoever uses them.

It must be clear I'm not attempting to justify any of the actions, in fact I find these abhorrent, I'm simply pointing out that there is a disconnect between the media handling of Saudi Arabia in the past and now which has not been satisfactorily explained.
If you don't understand the difference in this instance and why it has caused such outrage then I'm not sure anyone should be wasting tie explaining it to you. It's a pretty fundamental thing to understand.
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  #64  
Old 19.10.2018, 22:23
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Re: Khashoggi in Saudi Embassy.

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If you don't understand the difference in this instance and why it has caused such outrage then I'm not sure anyone should be wasting tie explaining it to you. It's a pretty fundamental thing to understand.
I know! I know! It's "teeth" isn't it?
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  #65  
Old 20.10.2018, 00:06
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Re: Khashoggi in Saudi Embassy.

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If you don't understand the difference in this instance and why it has caused such outrage then I'm not sure anyone should be wasting tie explaining it to you. It's a pretty fundamental thing to understand.
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I know! I know! It's "teeth" isn't it?
Hmmm, I noticed that very often the "write errors" are the most intresting bits in posts.
<<I'm not sure anyone should be wasting tie explaining it to you.>>
Is that humane progress or misanthropic "you're not even worth torturing" ?
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  #66  
Old 20.10.2018, 00:34
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Re: Khashoggi in Saudi Embassy.

I'm sure that 'justice will be seen to be done'. So what now...?

Quote:
Saudi Arabia: Journalist Khashoggi killed at consulate

Saudi Arabia has confirmed Jamal Khashoggi was killed inside the consulate in Istanbul after a fight broke out.


According to state television, the fight broke out between Mr Khashoggi and people who met him in the consulate, leading to his death.


The country's public prosecutor has said that 18 Saudis have been arrested so far in connection with the journalist's death.
https://news.sky.com/story/saudi-ara...viser-11530076
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  #67  
Old 20.10.2018, 07:05
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Re: Khashoggi in Saudi Embassy.

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I'm sure that 'justice will be seen to be done'. So what now...?

https://news.sky.com/story/saudi-ara...viser-11530076
As predicted they invent another story and blame every body else other than this mongrel Prince. And lets hope the Prince has made a few enemies now in his own court. Anyhow I am sure he will arrange their disappearance also.

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Last edited by omtatsat; 20.10.2018 at 07:42.
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  #68  
Old 20.10.2018, 08:42
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Re: Khashoggi in Saudi Embassy.

And let's not all forget that the Saudis are not the brightest bulbs in Allah's illuminations.
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  #69  
Old 20.10.2018, 09:05
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Re: Khashoggi in Saudi Embassy.

Welcome to 1984. The home of alternative facts.

Discussions led to a fight with 15 govt operatives flown in on 2 private jets.

It was helpful that an expert in post-mortems was also present. Expert translates to bone saw operator.

US president. ‘Seems plausible, now how about those $110bn orders for weapons, America’s great economy and all that..Saudi is our great ally’

Some more Turkish leaks tomorrow..?

We should never forget this barbaric state sponsored outra... oh look, kittens on the internet.
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Old 20.10.2018, 12:11
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Re: Khashoggi in Saudi Embassy.

Never bring a bone saw to a fist fight.
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  #71  
Old 20.10.2018, 12:35
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Re: Khashoggi in Saudi Embassy.

The reports say, Erdogan and MBS had a phone call.

The only problem Erdogan has is coming up with a big enough list of concessions he wants from MBS in exchange for not leaking any more details.
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Old 20.10.2018, 12:42
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Re: Khashoggi in Saudi Embassy.

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The reports say, Erdogan and MBS had a phone call.

The only problem Erdogan has is coming up with a big enough list of concessions he wants from MBS in exchange for not leaking any more details.
They could always invite Erdoğan to their embassy to discuss the details
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  #73  
Old 20.10.2018, 12:42
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Re: Khashoggi in Saudi Embassy.

Despite some of the very specific details about what happened in the consulate, I've seen no mention of any interrogation topic or questions. Has anyone seen or heard that any information was desired from Khashoggi?
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  #74  
Old 20.10.2018, 12:49
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Re: Khashoggi in Saudi Embassy.

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The reports say, Erdogan and MBS had a phone call.

The only problem Erdogan has is coming up with a big enough list of concessions he wants from MBS in exchange for not leaking any more details.
Or perhaps, which of the already leaked "facts" Erdogan will explicitly deny and on what terms, for example the "bone saw" or the authenticity of the recordings if these are still plausibly deniable.
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  #75  
Old 20.10.2018, 12:52
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Re: Khashoggi in Saudi Embassy.

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Despite some of the very specific details about what happened in the consulate, I've seen no mention of any interrogation topic or questions. Has anyone seen or heard that any information was desired from Khashoggi?
They didn't want information. They wanted him dead, simple as that.
And you are very mistaken if you actually believe it was an accident. That's preposterous.

They wanted it to be every bit as bloody and gruesome as it was.
There is a certain tradition in the region to mutilate your enemies' bodies because - IIRC - it runs counter to the muslim tradition and causes great grief among wives and kids.
Saddam Hussein, the Assad-family - name a Middle-East autocrat and you'll find stories of critics (and suspected critics or former allies fallen out of favor) tortured, killed and delivered to the front-yard as a meat-puzzle in a bloody plastic bag.
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Old 20.10.2018, 14:20
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Re: Khashoggi in Saudi Embassy.

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well here's an explanation for the outrage this time

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed...016-story.html
This analysis is a bit deeper and is not written by a main stream media journalist so is more dispassionate (Khashoggi wrote for the Washington Post)

https://www.strategic-culture.org/ne...here-stay.html
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Old 20.10.2018, 14:53
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Re: Khashoggi in Saudi Embassy.

"Saudi authorities released results from what they claimed was an initial investigation, saying that Khashoggi was killed after a discussion turned into a fight during his visit to the consulate."

"Asked if he found the Saudi explanation for Khashoggi’s death credible, President Donald Trump responded Friday night: “I do. I do.” He called the arrests a “good first step,” The Associated Press reported."

House republicans took immediate action by launching a smear campaign against Kashoggi.

's gonna be a tricky one to believe Spanky fans, but I bet you can do it. My understanding was he tripped and landed on a bone saw that he had brought himself to the consulate, what did a 'journalist' supposedly visiting for marriage paperwork need with a bone saw? I'm just sayin.
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  #78  
Old 20.10.2018, 18:03
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Re: Khashoggi in Saudi Embassy.

I think we can all agree that we live in the post-truth age: the truth does not matter that much anymore (if it ever did to begin with).

What matter is what the politicians decide to work with.
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  #79  
Old 20.10.2018, 20:06
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Re: Khashoggi in Saudi Embassy.

Saudi cat:



Tom
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Old 20.10.2018, 21:12
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Re: Khashoggi in Saudi Embassy.

Saudi military intelligence (an oxymoron, if ever I heard one)

"After carefully examining all the body parts, we've concluded that the person is probably dead"
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