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View Poll Results: Does he have a good chance?
Yes he can 43 70.49%
No way Jose 18 29.51%
Voters: 61. You may not vote on this poll

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  #21  
Old 15.10.2018, 10:04
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Re: Will Trump get reelected

1. Democracy has nearly never meant that every person gets to vote. The Greeks who invented it certainly did not let their slaves vote... let alone their women. Marginalizing minorities is a thing in many democratic countries, not just the US...

2. Many democracies inherited their system from the former British empire and rely on a majority vote in electoral districts. Gerrymandering is pretty big the world over and the total majority vote counts pretty little...
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  #22  
Old 15.10.2018, 10:19
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Re: Will Trump get reelected

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1. Democracy has nearly never meant that every person gets to vote. The Greeks who invented it certainly did not let their slaves vote... let alone their women. Marginalizing minorities is a thing in many democratic countries, not just the US...

2. Many democracies inherited their system from the former British empire and rely on a majority vote in electoral districts. Gerrymandering is pretty big the world over and the total majority vote counts pretty little...
True. But a few years have passed since the Greeks defined it

And I realize the historical context, but that doesn't mean I have to agree that it's an appropriate contemporary form of democracy.

That said, more of a philosophical discussion than anything else and if there were a straightforward measure or definition of democracy, we wouldn't have this conversation. I realize many still question whether "the average citizen" should have a direct vote and opt for or at least continue with a representative system. In my personal view, I believe in one-vote-per-citizen, but then again I'm Swiss, so thinking that way comes with the territory.
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  #23  
Old 15.10.2018, 10:24
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Re: Will Trump get reelected

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Seriously, the process is from a time when only male white landowners could vote. Although it has been amended, I don't see what is wrong with one person/one vote. That defines a democracy. If you're afraid of people from New York or California swaying the vote, why? Every state in the US has rural areas which mirror red areas values - California and New York included.
The crazy thing about the Electoral College is that many Electors aren't bound by the vote. And the population couldn't do anything if a different candidate got elected due to the Unfaithful Electors.

Alas, the old folks have godlike status, their decisions are considered to be the ultimate wisdom and impossible to adapt to an ever-changing world.
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In my personal view, I believe in one-vote-per-citizen, but then again I'm Swiss, so thinking that way comes with the territory.
A strong case can be made that Switzerland is among the most unequal countries as one could easily argue that all residents should get to vote regardless of citizenship.
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  #24  
Old 15.10.2018, 10:49
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Re: Will Trump get reelected

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The crazy thing about the Electoral College is that many Electors aren't bound by the vote. And the population couldn't do anything if a different candidate got elected due to the Unfaithful Electors.
It's happened once in 200+ years:

"faithless electors have only impacted the outcome of an election once, during the 1796 election where Pinckney would have become the President and Adams the Vice-President"

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A strong case can be made that Switzerland is among the most unequal countries as one could easily argue that all residents should get to vote regardless of citizenship.
Not many countries where non-citizens are allowed to vote, in fact none that I can think of.

Why should they be allowed to vote, anyway?

Tom
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  #25  
Old 15.10.2018, 10:50
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Re: Will Trump get reelected

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A strong case can be made that Switzerland is among the most unequal countries as one could easily argue that all residents should get to vote regardless of citizenship.
That case can be made for most (or even all?) countries that have a significant proportion of immigrants though. Does any country give broad voting rights - above municipal level - to non-citizens?

That said: I'd be pro "voting for C permit holders" (not B).
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  #26  
Old 15.10.2018, 10:53
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Re: Will Trump get reelected

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Jep and that's also what a real democracy would look like.
Well, then we should get rid of the Senate in the US, Switzerland, Italy, etc.

Tom
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  #27  
Old 15.10.2018, 11:00
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Re: Will Trump get reelected

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If the Democrats manage to find someone as hated as Hillary Clinton, then yes.
They are going to try their best to find somebody.
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  #28  
Old 15.10.2018, 11:09
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Re: Will Trump get reelected

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But Bernie was a likeable socialist, Hilarious, NOT!

Tom
Bernie was a well meaning guy who had some ideas that were maybe not entirely realistic. But who cares about those ideas? He would have ended up not being able to get them through. Not even within his own party. But he would still have been a likeable president with a touch of senior statemsan who would have done well on the small stuff. Like a more honest version of Bill Clinton or a smarter version of Carter.

Hillary was not a well meaning person. She would have been confrontational and vindictive. And she would have had the clout to follow up on her ideas.

So I would have preferred Bernie any day.
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  #29  
Old 15.10.2018, 11:11
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Re: Will Trump get reelected

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the generic American can‘t differentiate between socialism and communism.
so what is the difference?
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  #30  
Old 15.10.2018, 11:16
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Re: Will Trump get reelected

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Seriously, the process is from a time when only male white landowners could vote. Although it has been amended, I don't see what is wrong with one person/one vote. That defines a democracy. If you're afraid of people from New York or California swaying the vote, why? Every state in the US has rural areas which mirror red areas values - California and New York included.

The winner of the presidential election should be the person winning the popular vote, end of. States which have fewer people should not exert undue influence. Fairness.

For other issues, the senate makes sense to put each state on equal footing. Although truth be told, states do have too much lattitude in managing things like health care and voting rights.
The senate and the electoral council were designed to ensure fair representation of minorities.

In the thinkjing of the time, minorities were rural states, often founded around specific religious groups. In a majority vote system, minorities would have lost their voice.

You might argue, the concept was not developed further. Today there is a different concept of minority. And I might be inclined to agree with you.

But that's not the same as saying, the majorty should have a blank cheque to trample over any minority, just because they can.
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  #31  
Old 15.10.2018, 11:18
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Re: Will Trump get reelected

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Well, then we should get rid of the Senate in the US, Switzerland, Italy, etc.

Tom
False equivalency. No, they serve different functions. Giving states an equal voice for some functions makes sense. However, the electoral college is not the same thing as the senate. As it stands it has just one function - presidental election.
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  #32  
Old 15.10.2018, 11:29
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Re: Will Trump get reelected

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The senate and the electoral council were designed to ensure fair representation of minorities.

In the thinkjing of the time, minorities were rural states, often founded around specific religious groups. In a majority vote system, minorities would have lost their voice.

You might argue, the concept was not developed further. Today there is a different concept of minority. And I might be inclined to agree with you.

But that's not the same as saying, the majorty should have a blank cheque to trample over any minority, just because they can.

A little history, for example.
http://time.com/4558510/electoral-co...story-slavery/

The electoral college (not council) has more to do with north/south divide, and owes a lot to the fact that slaves did not count in population estimates (neither did they have a vote, nor did women) Therefore, the north would dominate. So you can dress it up with all this high sounding stuff, but that's just not the case. And that's why I honestly believe it's no longer relevant to the US presidental election.


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One Founding-era argument for the Electoral College stemmed from the fact that ordinary Americans across a vast continent would lack sufficient information to choose directly and intelligently among leading presidential candidates.

This objection rang true in the 1780s, when life was far more local. But the early emergence of national presidential parties rendered the objection obsolete by linking presidential candidates to slates of local candidates and national platforms, which explained to voters who stood for what.

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Enter the 12th Amendment, which allowed each party to designate one candidate for president and a separate candidate for vice president. The amendment’s modifications of the electoral process transformed the Framers’ framework, enabling future presidential elections to be openly populist and partisan affairs featuring two competing tickets. It is the 12th Amendment’s Electoral College system, not the Philadelphia Framers’, that remains in place today. If the general citizenry’s lack of knowledge had been the real reason for the Electoral College, this problem was largely solved by 1800. So why wasn’t the entire Electoral College contraption scrapped at that point?

Standard civics-class accounts of the Electoral College rarely mention the real demon dooming direct national election in 1787 and 1803: slavery.

At the Philadelphia convention, the visionary Pennsylvanian James Wilson proposed direct national election of the president. But the savvy Virginian James Madison responded that such a system would prove unacceptable to the South: “The right of suffrage was much more diffusive [i.e., extensive] in the Northern than the Southern States; and the latter could have no influence in the election on the score of Negroes.” In other words, in a direct election system, the North would outnumber the South, whose many slaves (more than half a million in all) of course could not vote. But the Electoral College—a prototype of which Madison proposed in this same speech—instead let each southern state count its slaves, albeit with a two-fifths discount, in computing its share of the overall count.
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  #33  
Old 15.10.2018, 11:38
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Re: Will Trump get reelected

All true.

But many things that in principle are right came into being for the wrong reaosns.

The Magna Carta was basically about a bunch of barons being angry that the king was curtailing their hunting and fishing rights and making them pay more tayes than they thought were fair. So they got together and raised an army and forced the king to sign a hastily written and overly wordy document that was really just about small squabbles of the day, and most of which is totally irrelevent today.

But the document went on to become one of the founding base documents of modern democracy and the grandfather of the concept of hman rights.

What people want to achieve does not always correlate with what they do acheive.
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  #34  
Old 15.10.2018, 11:47
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Re: Will Trump get reelected

But your supposition is that the electoral college is "right". It's not right.
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  #35  
Old 15.10.2018, 11:57
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Re: Will Trump get reelected

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The senate and the electoral council were designed to ensure fair representation of minorities.

In the thinkjing of the time, minorities were rural states, often founded around specific religious groups. In a majority vote system, minorities would have lost their voice.

You might argue, the concept was not developed further. Today there is a different concept of minority. And I might be inclined to agree with you.

But that's not the same as saying, the majorty should have a blank cheque to trample over any minority, just because they can.
But that is democracy, the majority rules otherwise we would have chaos
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  #36  
Old 15.10.2018, 12:44
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Re: Will Trump get reelected

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But that is democracy, the majority rules otherwise we would have chaos
Exactly. The majority does not rule and we do have chaos.
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Old 15.10.2018, 13:33
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Re: Will Trump get reelected

reality-tv in the white house, more social media than motions, nutcases like Ye can shout m*therf*ucker on live tv, all mixed up with some porn... yeaaahaw! for sure he will get re-elected! best entertainment ever!
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  #38  
Old 15.10.2018, 14:26
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Re: Will Trump get reelected

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They are going to try their best to find somebody.
Michelle?

Tom
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  #39  
Old 15.10.2018, 14:35
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Re: Will Trump get reelected

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So, as a former Connecticut Yankee, you're saying that I should be against the electoral college?

Tom
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  #40  
Old 15.10.2018, 14:58
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Re: Will Trump get reelected

Actually, you should. As a contrarian and someone prejudiced for some odd reason against NY and CA, you should not. ‘‘Tis an internal conflict.
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