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  #41  
Old 13.03.2019, 10:02
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines ET 302 crashed near Addis Ababa

A third pilot complained that Boeing had not explained changes to the plane’s automation to pilots.
“I am left to wonder: what else don’t I know?” the pilot wrote. “The Flight Manual is inadequate and almost criminally insufficient.”




interesting article:


http://time.com/5550449/pilots-boeing-737-max-issues/
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Old 13.03.2019, 10:48
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines ET 302 crashed near Addis Ababa

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And Canada, both Air Canada and WestJet fly the type.

What we are seeing is politicians falling all over themselves tring to look like they are doing something. The experts are being prudent, awaiting news from Addis, and counselling operating airlines to perform additional safety checks.
Except the USofA. The FAA says there's no evidence that would warrant their grounding.
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  #43  
Old 13.03.2019, 11:04
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines ET 302 crashed near Addis Ababa

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Except the USofA. The FAA says there's no evidence that would warrant their grounding.
Corporate interest before anything else. Not really a first for Boeing, they tried it on when a new 767 crashed and they didn't want to reveal that the issue was with the plane's reverser system. Not only they tried to cover it but they also lied to say that even with the reverser system faulty in midflight the plane could not crash. Niki offered them to fly the same plane with two Boeing pilots on board to test their theory, it was only than Boeing admitted.
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  #44  
Old 13.03.2019, 17:29
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines ET 302 crashed near Addis Ababa

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A third pilot complained that Boeing had not explained changes to the plane’s automation to pilots.
“I am left to wonder: what else don’t I know?” the pilot wrote. “The Flight Manual is inadequate and almost criminally insufficient.”




interesting article:


http://time.com/5550449/pilots-boeing-737-max-issues/
So bullshit. Nothing official about the third pilot's "report". You might as well have searched Facebook to find a "quotable" comment.

From the link above - The pilot reports were filed last year in a data base compiled by NASA. They are voluntary safety reports and do not publicly reveal the names of pilots, the airlines or the location of the incidents.

The data base mentioned is this: https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/

Anyone. ANYONE can enter a report.
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  #45  
Old 13.03.2019, 18:56
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines ET 302 crashed near Addis Ababa

Boeing Anticipates New 737 MAX Software Deployment 'In Coming Weeks'

Mar 12, 2019 Jens Flottau | Aviation Daily

Boeing says it will deploy a 737 MAX software “enhancement” across the fleet in the coming weeks incorporating feedback “received from our customers.” According to the company, the FAA will also mandate the change in an Airworthiness Directive (AD) “no later than April.”

The statement comes in the aftermath of two 737 MAX 8 crashes in less than five months involving Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines. Since the March 10 fatal accident of Ethiopian’s Flight 302, a growing number of civil aviation authorities and airlines have grounded their MAX fleets.

The Oct. 29 crash of Lion Air flight 610 appears to be linked to maintenance practices, erroneous speed data input to and pilot confusion about the handling of the maneuvering characteristics augmentation system (MCAS), a new flight control law introduced on the MAX. There is no indication so far that MCAS played a role in the March 10 Ethiopian accident. Both the flight data and cockpit voice recorder have been recovered, but data analysis is yet to begin.

The FAA stated March 11 that “this investigation has just begun and to date we have not been provided data to draw any conclusions or take any actions.” The authority issued a Continued Airworthiness Notification to the International Community.

According to Boeing, the enhancements include updates to “the MCAS flight control law, pilot displays, operation manuals and crew training. The enhanced flight control law incorporates angle of attack (AOA) inputs, limits stabilizer trim commands in response to an erroneous angle of attack reading and provides a limit to the stabilizer command in order to retain elevator authority.”

Boeing said MCAS was initially introduced to improve handling characteristics and decrease pitch-up tendency “at elevated angles of attack” but not “in normal flight.” The company stressed in its statement that “the pilot will always be able to override the flight control law using electric trim or manual. In addition, it can be controlled through the use of the existing runaway stabilizer procedure.
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  #46  
Old 13.03.2019, 20:13
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines ET 302 crashed near Addis Ababa

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The UK has now grounded them!

Pretty much just flying in the USA now.
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And Canada,
Not any more https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47553787
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  #47  
Old 13.03.2019, 21:18
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines ET 302 crashed near Addis Ababa

From Mr. Trump:

"We're going to be issuing an emergency order of prohibition to ground all flights of the 737 MAX 8 and the 737 MAX 9 and planes associated with that line," Trump told reporters at the White House.


From faa.gov:

3/13/19 3:15pm Update
Statement from the FAA on Ethiopian Airlines

"The FAA is ordering the temporary grounding of Boeing 737 MAX aircraft operated by U.S. airlines or in U.S. territory. The agency made this decision as a result of the data gathering process and new evidence collected at the site and analyzed today. This evidence, together with newly refined satellite data available to FAA this morning, led to this decision.

"The grounding will remain in effect pending further investigation, including examination of information from the aircraft’s flight data recorders and cockpit voice recorders. An FAA team is in Ethiopia assisting the NTSB as parties to the investigation of the Flight 302 accident. The agency will continue to investigate."


From Boeing.com:

In Consultation with the FAA, NTSB and its Customers, Boeing Supports Action to Temporarily Ground 737 MAX Operations

March 13, 2019 – Boeing continues to have full confidence in the safety of the 737 MAX. However, after consultation with the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), and aviation authorities and its customers around the world, Boeing has determined -- out of an abundance of caution and in order to reassure the flying public of the aircraft’s safety -- to recommend to the FAA the temporary suspension of operations of the entire global fleet of 371 737 MAX aircraft.

“On behalf of the entire Boeing team, we extend our deepest sympathies to the families and loved ones of those who have lost their lives in these two tragic accidents,” said Dennis Muilenburg, president, CEO, Chairman of The Boeing Company.

“We are supporting this proactive step out of an abundance of caution. Safety is a core value at Boeing for as long as we have been building airplanes; and it always will be. There is no greater priority for our company and our industry. We are doing everything we can to understand the cause of the accidents in partnership with the investigators, deploy safety enhancements and help ensure this does not happen again.”

Boeing makes this recommendation and supports the decision by the FAA.

Last edited by AlaskaGuy; 13.03.2019 at 22:12. Reason: Added statements from Boeing and Mr. Trump
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  #48  
Old 13.03.2019, 22:40
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines ET 302 crashed near Addis Ababa

Now Boeing grounds ALL:

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47562727

Tom
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  #49  
Old 13.03.2019, 23:01
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines ET 302 crashed near Addis Ababa

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Now Boeing grounds ALL:

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47562727

Tom

No, Trump grounded them, Boeing complied, slight difference
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Old 13.03.2019, 23:27
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines ET 302 crashed near Addis Ababa

Mine gott I feel safer now. If Mr. Trump says I’m safer on the ground then it just has to be true.

Heaven save us from politicians who don’t know the difference between a a pilot and a pitot tube.
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  #51  
Old 13.03.2019, 23:32
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines ET 302 crashed near Addis Ababa

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Now Boeing grounds ALL:

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47562727

Tom
Wondering if there is really new evidence or just a handy excuse?
If there is new evidence would be nice to know more, I assume the mention of satellite information indicates the plane was flying erratically?
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  #52  
Old 14.03.2019, 00:48
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines ET 302 crashed near Addis Ababa

So, if originally Boeing deemed that MCAS can widely change the horizontal stabilizer trim, and now it is limiting it, then will we see stalls instead of sudden dives because either MCAS will not have enough authority to counter a stall or will be disengaged because of overreactions to some transient inputs?

If I understand correctly, the aerodynamics of the new plane is such that it develops stalls faster than the old models and that's why it needs a fast automatic control loop to counter it. But this automatic control needs correct inputs.

So it seems that the airplane designers traded lesser longitudinal static stability (resulting from airplane shape) for some other design goals (more efficient and larger engines, same short landing gear) and added an active pitch control mechanism instead.

It would be interesting times for Boeing if it turned out that they cannot fix it "in software" to protect both from stalls and erroneous dives...
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  #53  
Old 14.03.2019, 06:54
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines ET 302 crashed near Addis Ababa

This:

https://www.seattletimes.com/busines...ion-air-crash/

gives some insight on the logic behind MCAS, specifically where it says:

"... when the angle of attack is high, this model is less stable compared to prior 737 variants. That's because the MAX has bigger, heavier engines that are also cantilevered further forward on the wing to provide more ground clearance. That changes the center of gravity."

While a forward CG generally increases stability, I think that when a forward-CG aircraft actually does stall, the stall can be more violent. So MCAS may be trying to keep the airplane out of that corner of the flight envelope at any cost in order to obtain certification under the same Type Certificate as the non-MAX variants -- or to be certifiable at all.

It makes you wonder why Boeing, instead of putting the 737 out to pasture and moving forward with NLA ("Next Large Airplane"), further stretched this 1967-design aircraft. Could it be the heat they were getting from the A320neo?

If it turns out that the MAX isn't fixable in software, Boeing has a big problem on its hands. I've read that MAXes are providing some 40% of gross revenue and well over 50% of profits.

And what's going to happen at the hemmed-in-by-housing Renton plant where they're cranking out new 737s (mostly MAXes) at the rate of 52 per month and talking about bumping that up to 57? Or, while they're investigating the problem, will they continue cranking out MAXes and fill up all the airport's ramp space like six months ago when the engine supplier fell behind? Or go back to making -900ERs? Or furlough thousands of production workers for who knows how long?

Last edited by AlaskaGuy; 14.03.2019 at 07:11.
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  #54  
Old 14.03.2019, 09:20
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines ET 302 crashed near Addis Ababa

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No, Trump grounded them, Boeing complied, slight difference
No, the FAA grounded them, Boeing complied, Trump claimed the credit.
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Old 14.03.2019, 11:24
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines ET 302 crashed near Addis Ababa

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FAA Administrator Daniel Elwell said the grounding of the 737 Max 8 and 9 came in light of new information, including from the flight data recorder and voice recorder.

He said the new data tied the Ethiopian airline disaster to an earlier crash of the same model plane in Indonesia.
Sounds serious!
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Old 14.03.2019, 11:42
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines ET 302 crashed near Addis Ababa

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Sounds serious!

..........and expensive
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  #57  
Old 14.03.2019, 12:40
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines ET 302 crashed near Addis Ababa

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And what's going to happen at the hemmed-in-by-housing Renton plant where they're cranking out new 737s (mostly MAXes) at the rate of 52 per month and talking about bumping that up to 57? Or, while they're investigating the problem, will they continue cranking out MAXes and fill up all the airport's ramp space like six months ago when the engine supplier fell behind? Or go back to making -900ERs? Or furlough thousands of production workers for who knows how long?
Boeings production rate of all types is 52 a month, not just the B737.
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  #58  
Old 14.03.2019, 12:57
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines ET 302 crashed near Addis Ababa

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Could it be the heat they were getting from the A320neo?
Of course.
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  #59  
Old 14.03.2019, 13:29
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines ET 302 crashed near Addis Ababa

Question for the flight guys:

If my memory serves me correctly, it took about 6-8 weeks from the first wing cracks reported to Airbus, to them grounding them all back in 2012.

Have Boeing been lax in grounding the Max 8, or did they need the second comparison to justify their move?
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  #60  
Old 14.03.2019, 19:32
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines ET 302 crashed near Addis Ababa

Contrary to what you read in the media Boeing has not grounded the 737 8 MAX. Nor do they have the authority to do so. Aviation regulators, the FAA, Transport Canada, et. al. have the authority and have done so.

The manufacturers can, and do, issue advisorys which are only recommendations. But most airlines follow them and often regulators make them mandatory.

Boeing thought the problem was fixed. They may have been wrong. Or it could be a completely different problem. We will know more next week after the BEA decodes the black (orange) boxes.
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