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  #41  
Old 09.07.2019, 16:19
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Re: Asyl Seekers: Switzerland vs. USA

Let me start by admitting that I lack direct contact with people from the middle east or northern Africa.

I know two Chinese families whose flight was caused by the Vietnam war. They arrived in CH 40-45 years ago (yes, not all at the same time), I got to know them in the mid-80ies. What I see there is the inherent need to be self-reliant, not just a desire but need. They got simple factory jobs fairly quickly, even with very poor command of German, and with multiple grownups living in the same household paying for their living by themselves no longer was a question after a few years. It's my impression that this kind of attitude is typical for the refugees from southeas Asia and China, perhaps for refugees in general until the '90ies or so.

However the refugees from the Middle East and north Africa appear to have a completely different attitude. Of all 123k who are part of the refugee system (57k asylum requests accepted, 15k requests being processed, 47k requests denied but granted provisional residence because a return would be too dangerous, plus 4k in special situations) 85% receive social help even though many have been here for more than a decade.

Of those 85%, 19% have a job (including apprenticeships), 16% take part in some kind of education (presumably excluding those in an apprenticeship), and 7% partake in an other job market preparation measures. (those 19% plus the 15% not drawing on social help amount to some 31% of the total 123k having a job of some sort)

So 58% of the recipients of social help neither have any kind of job nor partake in any kind of educational activity, that's half of all the 123k who are part of the asylum/refugee system. Half of the 123k neither are, nor prepare to become, productive (and, ideally, self-reliant).

I find it extremely difficult to accept that such a large portion is genuinely unable to be or train to become productive, especially given that the majority are male (some 60%), young (about 50% are in the 18-35 age bracket), and single (65%). Granted, some may simply have no concept of what it means to be part of a functioning society. But that doesn't mean they can't do simple jobs, let alone train for them. To me that 50% figure reeks of abuse, probably not by all but by a good many, by a significant portion of the whole group.

Unfortunately there's little to no incentive to get those who abuse the system to change their attitude. Once too much pressure is applied there's the increased risk of criminality, which would cost even more and cause harm in the non-refugee population to boot, so that's not really an option. And deportation is not an option either in all too many cases, as shown by the number of provisionally accepted.

I'm not sure I'd call that a system that functions fairly well. Clearly some parts do but some look just as clearly like they don't.
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  #42  
Old 09.07.2019, 18:51
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Re: Asyl Seekers: Switzerland vs. USA

https://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/neue...en-sozialhilfe

In 2016 there were 273k on benefits, and additionally 25k of refugees and 55k of asylum seekers.

Therefore the refugees and asylum seekers constitute 22% of all people on social benefits.
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  #43  
Old 09.07.2019, 19:16
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Re: Asyl Seekers: Switzerland vs. USA

As I understand it, in many cases refugees into Switzerland are - by the Swiss laws - not ALLOWED to work. If that is so, then they CANNOT get off the Social System and become financially self-reliant, even if they want to.

EDIT: I went to have a look.
There's more information here (in German) https://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/flue...-und-wer-nicht

Essentially, a person applying for refugee status is forbidden from working in Switzerland for the first 3 months. This can be extended by the authorities for a further 3 months.

Once the person's application has been processed up to the point that they are formally permitted to work, they may then apply for any kind of job at all, just like anyone else.

However, the potential employer will have to apply for special permission to be allowed to employ the refugee. To obtain this permission, the potential employer has to prove that he/she has tried but been unable to fill the post with
  • a Swiss Person,
  • a non-refugee Person already properly residing in Switzerland, or
  • an EU/EFTA Person.
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  #44  
Old 09.07.2019, 21:08
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Re: Asyl Seekers: Switzerland vs. USA

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I'm not sure I'd call that a system that functions fairly well. Clearly some parts do but some look just as clearly like they don't.
Statistics can be very ambiguous. I can imagine a large percent of those not working are children, mothers or those waiting for their permit.
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  #45  
Old 09.07.2019, 21:48
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Re: Asyl Seekers: Switzerland vs. USA

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I know two Chinese families whose flight was caused by the Vietnam war. They arrived in CH 40-45 years ago (yes, not all at the same time), I got to know them in the mid-80ies. What I see there is the inherent need to be self-reliant, not just a desire but need. They got simple factory jobs fairly quickly, even with very poor command of German, and with multiple grownups living in the same household paying for their living by themselves no longer was a question after a few years.
Of course I don't know, but I surmise that, as long ago as your friends came to Switzerland, there may not yet have been the laws that now apply, preventing refugees from working at all, to start with, and then, once they are allowed to work, placing them at the very end of the queue for any job, after Swiss people, all residents of Switzerland with working permits, and anyone from the EU/EFTA countries.
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  #46  
Old 09.07.2019, 23:34
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Re: Asyl Seekers: Switzerland vs. USA

I believe this article is about asylum seekers vacationing in the same countries they supposedly fled from while in fear of their lives. And using free money to do so.

https://m.bazonline.ch/articles/28502813
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  #47  
Old 10.07.2019, 11:19
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Re: Asyl Seekers: Switzerland vs. USA

I remember reading something similar in 2017, when that article was written. At the time, I had the opportunity to speak to a man from Eritrea, who came to Switzerland as a child, went to school, learnt Swiss German, completed an apprenticeship and was working in Zurich as an electrician, and who still has contact with relatives in Eritrea. I asked him about such reports.

He told me that although the situation in Eritrea is dire for many people, the threats to one's life depend - just like many other countries - on one's political affiliation and one's degree of resistance to the system, i.e. whether or not one has been noticed as being one of those working towards social and political change. If one's name is On The List, as he put it, it's very dangerous. Those people need to flee. He said there may be cheaters who get asylum in Switzerland even though their names were not On The List, but many were truly in danger.

About re-entering Eritrea if one's name is On The List? He told me that some risk it, despite the enormous danger, because they are politically motivated and part of underground networks trying to bring about postive change and peace. Most, he said, would not.

However he did explain to me that in neighbouring countries there is a new sub-branch of the tourist industry, catering for home-sick Eritreans who visit, and there they meet their relations who have also travelled from Eritrea.

He said it is as if, let's say, Switzerland were a war-zone with a repressive, chaotic government and no-one's quite sure what's going to happen next. Rightly or wrongly, you get identified as a socially active person (or even just the family member of one) and your name goes On The List of the Swiss powers that be. You run for your life. Depending where you can get asylum, you many end up living in Sweden in the USA, in Israel or Australia. There, you are homesick and worried about the rest of your family and friends back in Switzerland. Clever businesses start up in Singen, Bludenz, Como and Portalier, to where you can travel from your asylum-giving country, stay safely and undetected, and your friends from Switzerland - in particular those not On The List - can visit you.

Last edited by doropfiz; 11.07.2019 at 04:11. Reason: grammar and typo
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  #48  
Old 13.07.2019, 02:16
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Re: Asyl Seekers: Switzerland vs. USA

World Economic Forum
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/...ilippo-grandi/
Refugee Crisis (19th June 2019)
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  #49  
Old 13.07.2019, 02:26
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Re: Asyl Seekers: Switzerland vs. USA

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/...-chair-s-story (22nd January 2019)
Mohammed Hassan Mohamud, 28, has lived in Kenya’s Kakuma refugee camp for the last 20 years.

"No human deserves to be in a camp for that long."

"We have people with talents who, given a chance, can perform. Let’s move away from this model of handouts and see how we can really empower people to provide for themselves.”

Video: https://www.facebook.com/worldeconom...5527533714111/ (24th January 2019)
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Old 13.07.2019, 09:59
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Re: Asyl Seekers: Switzerland vs. USA

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https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/...-chair-s-story (22nd January 2019)
Mohammed Hassan Mohamud, 28, has lived in Kenya’s Kakuma refugee camp for the last 20 years.

"No human deserves to be in a camp for that long."

"We have people with talents who, given a chance, can perform. Let’s move away from this model of handouts and see how we can really empower people to provide for themselves.”

Video: https://www.facebook.com/worldeconom...5527533714111/ (24th January 2019)
How moving are these individual's histories, aren't they? Well, I don't see a run of 1st world citizens taking immigrants to their homes. One might demonstrate civil disobedience and adopt or marry (or both) to circumvent this land inhumane laws. Or use one's assets to sponsor a refugee camp family resettlement elsewhere, or simply better health care either in Africa or in slums of Latin America or India or Asia. Nobody's really keeping these 1st world concerned citizens from doing it en masse.
Guess why? Because it doesn't scale. What scales is providing help to let the nations build themselves and take care of themselves.
The most important one is peace. Well, here US and Europe did a reverse for the last decades.
Then there is fair trade where the local companies can profit (until recently Europe and US did everything in the opposite way, thus these European and US troops in many African countries protecting their assets). Now there is China doing the same.
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