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  #41  
Old 30.11.2019, 09:11
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Re: A stabbing just happened (*fill in the blank*)

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You were doing so well until that last line, where barbarism overtook reasoning. Do you support the death penalty, out of interest?
Interesting how you assume that any view that results in the death of another person 'takes over reason', as I could not be more rational about it. I am not a bleeding heart liberal who prioritises human life no matter the situation and I have never claimed to be. I think some issues should be dealt with liberally, others conservatively.

Terrorists who go on public killing sprees deserve to themselves be put down without hesitation or mercy and if ending that threat that results in their own lives being taken then I am completely fine with this from a moral perspective.
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  #42  
Old 30.11.2019, 09:54
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Re: A stabbing just happened (*fill in the blank*)

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Anyway, it will now be independently investigated to see if the execution was justified.

What 'execution'?
You mean the justified homicide?


What about the execution of the innocent?
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  #43  
Old 30.11.2019, 10:12
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Re: A stabbing just happened (*fill in the blank*)

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Interesting how you assume that any view that results in the death of another person 'takes over reason', as I could not be more rational about it. I am not a bleeding heart liberal who prioritises human life no matter the situation and I have never claimed to be. I think some issues should be dealt with liberally, others conservatively.

Terrorists who go on public killing sprees deserve to themselves be put down without hesitation or mercy and if ending that threat that results in their own lives being taken then I am completely fine with this from a moral perspective.
Again with the phrasing..."put down". It gives a very clear view of your perspective.

You put down animals; dehumanising people is what gets us into this mess in the first place.
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  #44  
Old 30.11.2019, 10:14
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Re: A stabbing just happened (*fill in the blank*)

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What 'execution'?
You mean the justified homicide?
Well, we shall see at the inquiry.


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What about the execution of the innocent?
You have just owned yourself. The guy who got shot hadn't been tried or proved guilty of anything, had he?

This is why we have a criminal justice system to determine the punishment, and as you well know, the death penalty isn't available on our statute books.
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  #45  
Old 30.11.2019, 10:40
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Re: A stabbing just happened (*fill in the blank*)

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Standard police tactics in the UK do not extend to neutralizing a threat by deadly force.
BBC yesterday interviewed a former head of counter terrorism. I forgot his name, but he had sir in front of it.

He stated that in a ‘normal’ police shooting, the procedure involves shooting, then giving first aid as soon as the shot person is on the ground.

For the situation where there’s a belief that the person is a terrorist who might be able to detonate a vest, they will be shot until they are no longer moving.

Or, words to that effect..
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  #46  
Old 30.11.2019, 10:48
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Re: A stabbing just happened (*fill in the blank*)

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BBC yesterday interviewed a former head of counter terrorism. I forgot his name, but he had sir in front of it.

He stated that in a ‘normal’ police shooting, the procedure involves shooting, then giving first aid as soon as the shot person is on the ground.

For the situation where there’s a belief that the person is a terrorist who might be able to detonate a vest, they will be shot until they are no longer moving.

Or, words to that effect..
As it should be.

From the news reports it appeared as soon as the (hoax) ves was seen the police pulled the retraining civilians away.

As it is, two people died.
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  #47  
Old 30.11.2019, 10:52
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Re: A stabbing just happened (*fill in the blank*)

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You have just owned yourself. The guy who got shot hadn't been tried or proved guilty of anything, had he?
Just reading the latest reports and it appears that the attacker had threatened to detonate his (fake) bomb vest at Fishmonger's Hall a few minutes earlier. He's then gone on to kill two people and injure three others. Nobody knew if the bomb vest was fake or not. There's people on a stopped bus very close to the scene. Armed with that knowledge arriving at the scene, would I risk the bomb being real and being detonated? Is there a way to safely take the assailant into custody? What explosives does the assailant have? What would be the blast zone if it detonated? What would be the number of casualties?

In that position and with that knowledge, would I neutralise the threat? Quite possibly, even likely, yes. Should I? That's debatable. One day it's going to be a dirty bomb, and even a moment's hesitation will be catastrophic. I'm just damned thankful that it wasn't and isn't my decison to make.
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  #48  
Old 30.11.2019, 11:11
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Re: A stabbing just happened (*fill in the blank*)

I think society can rehabilitate some offenders but this is clear case in point that people with deep seated hatred and a 'cause' are beyond that.

Prison is like a social club for these people, they meet like minded others, grow their hatred, hatch plans and hone their skills..Get released early and straight back to business.

Frankly my views are off the scale on what to do with this.. How many times has there been a terrorist attack in the UK, France, Belgium, NL, wherever and we hear that the perpetrators were on a watch list or were known to the secret services etc etc etc.. (Hint ; the answer is every time) .. That list should be handed to some special forces and the population reduced accordingly and quietly. Sadly it'll never happen because we're all too nice.
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  #49  
Old 30.11.2019, 11:28
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Re: A stabbing just happened (*fill in the blank*)

More on the stabbing attack at The Hague. Seems the guy got away here, they're hunting for him.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-50609528
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  #50  
Old 30.11.2019, 11:32
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Re: A stabbing just happened (*fill in the blank*)

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You put down animals; dehumanising people is what gets us into this mess in the first place.
So we should see them as loving and caring people and all problems are over and it is all our own fault up till then?
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  #51  
Old 30.11.2019, 11:38
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Re: A stabbing just happened (*fill in the blank*)

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This is why we have a criminal justice system to determine the punishment, and as you well know, the death penalty isn't available on our statute books.
The police had to take a split second decision. They did not know the suicide belt was not real. Maybe in hindsight it may turn out they over-reacted, but they acted in what at that moment they thought was the best interest of the public. I wouldn't like to be in their shoes and to have to make decisions like that.
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  #52  
Old 30.11.2019, 11:42
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Re: A stabbing just happened (*fill in the blank*)

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What explosives does the assailant have? What would be the blast zone if it detonated? What would be the number of casualties?
I don't know much about the way these explosives work, but surely shooting at explosives could risk actually detonating them. They would thus have to target things like his head so as to not risk hitting the explosives. Shooting to injure is thus nigh on impossible in the situation.
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  #53  
Old 30.11.2019, 11:45
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Re: A stabbing just happened (*fill in the blank*)

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I don't know much about the way these explosives work, but surely shooting at explosives could risk actually detonating them. They would thus have to target things like his head so as to not risk hitting the explosives. Shooting to injure is thus nigh on impossible in the situation.
If the review clears them, all good, sometimes these decisions do need to be made.

It should absolutely not be the default response as a few of the more barbaric members on here seem to suggest. In fact, both Edwin and Chuff have dehumanised the apparent terrorist, with Chuff going as far as to suggest they should do more to him than shooting (shooting is the least that should be done) - this is not the mark of a civilised society.
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Old 30.11.2019, 12:06
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Re: A stabbing just happened (*fill in the blank*)

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I don't know much about the way these explosives work, but surely shooting at explosives could risk actually detonating them. They would thus have to target things like his head so as to not risk hitting the explosives. Shooting to injure is thus nigh on impossible in the situation.
But that is actually what they did, funnily enough.

There was a quick double-tap to an unknown body part, ONLY THEN did the guy raise his hands and put his coat over his head. I can't imagine a highly trained agent would miss his intended target at point blank range.

So, if they were intending to neutralize him they did a shitty job - he could still clearly have detonated something after the shots.

Something doesn't add up.
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  #55  
Old 30.11.2019, 12:29
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Re: A stabbing just happened (*fill in the blank*)

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But that is actually what they did, funnily enough.

There was a quick double-tap to an unknown body part, ONLY THEN did the guy raise his hands and put his coat over his head. I can't imagine a highly trained agent would miss his intended target at point blank range.

So, if they were intending to neutralize him they did a shitty job - he could still clearly have detonated something after the shots.

Something doesn't add up.
The police did the same to the last London bridge attackers didn’t they ? Surrounded them and shot them. I think it’s what we do expect them to do.

Worth looking how the other outcome will be received as well: inquiry into police action shows lethal force was not needed, so logically what ? Those police officers are struck off, even charged with murder? Next year London bridge attacker v3 sets off, police catch up and surround him, knowing their mates got charged with murder last year for shooting one they delay pulling the trigger. Huge bomb goes off. Disaster.

Even with an investigation I very much doubt any police officer will be in trouble here. They stopped a terrorist, which is what society needs them to do.
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  #56  
Old 30.11.2019, 13:51
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Re: A stabbing just happened (*fill in the blank*)

I have a friend fairly high up in the police who only recently was telling me that people don't realise how much of their time is taken up with counter terrorism these days. So many of their resources is held up in tackling this problem that other types of crime are of neglected.
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Old 30.11.2019, 13:58
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I have a friend fairly high up in the police who only recently was telling me that people don't realise how much of their time is taken up with counter terrorism these days. So many of their resources is held up in tackling this problem that other types of crime are of neglected.
Also, the fact that due to Tory cuts there are two dozen coppers covering an area from Bristol to Chelmsford, which probably doesn't help...
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Old 30.11.2019, 14:01
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Re: A stabbing just happened (*fill in the blank*)

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Also, the fact that due to Tory cuts there are two dozen coppers covering an area from Bristol to Chelmsford, which probably doesn't help...

This is true, but yesterday's attack can't be blamed on Tory cuts. Armed police were there in an instant. The reason as to why he was walking the streets however...
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Old 30.11.2019, 14:05
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This is true, but yesterday's attack can't be blamed on Tory cuts. Armed police were there in an instant. The reason as to why he was walking the streets however...
That'll be the Tory cuts to the prison service, resulting in 3 million prisoners living in 20 cells in Stafford Prison...
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Old 30.11.2019, 14:05
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Re: A stabbing just happened (*fill in the blank*)

Anyway, who's got money on Boris cancelling the GE and declaring a state of emergency?
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