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  #81  
Old 01.12.2019, 12:15
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Re: A stabbing just happened (*fill in the blank*)

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Maybe I'm missing something here, but British policemen don't typically carry firearms, and even if they do, they don't typically happen to loiter around with them. So either they were there by a pure stroke of luck, or the situation must have been escalating for long enough for them to be called and have time to arrive on the scene.
London has armed response vehicles patrolling.
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  #82  
Old 01.12.2019, 12:18
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Re: A stabbing just happened (*fill in the blank*)

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If you start getting stabby or wearing a lumpy vest or drive a van erratically in that area, you have to expect it’s going to end badly.
... or being Brazilian and running for the tube?
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  #83  
Old 01.12.2019, 12:30
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Maybe I'm missing something here, but British policemen don't typically carry firearms, and even if they do, they don't typically happen to loiter around with them. So either they were there by a pure stroke of luck, or the situation must have been escalating for long enough for them to be called and have time to arrive on the scene.
It's typically done by area. My home town had a dedicated armed response team at certain times. The van would patrol.

An old friend's hubby was part of that team. They have /had a "hotspot" map. London Bridge will more than qualify.
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  #84  
Old 01.12.2019, 21:55
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Re: A stabbing just happened (*fill in the blank*)

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So either they were there by a pure stroke of luck, or the situation must have been escalating for long enough for them to be called and have time to arrive on the scene.
The first incident was at Fishmonger's Hall and the City of London stations at Bishopgate and Wood Street are a few minutes from the scene. The media are saying it was armed officers from this area who responded.

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When are firearms officers deployed?

There were around 18,700 police firearms operations in 2017/18, up around 20% on the year before. A firearms operation is when armed officers are deployed to “protect themselves or others from a person who (a) is in possession of a firearm, (b) has immediate access to a firearm or (c) is otherwise so dangerous that the officer’s use of a firearm may be necessary”. Shots don’t need to be fired for it to count as a firearms operation, and multiple deployments of officers can count towards a single incident.

Just over a quarter of firearms operations were in London in 2017/18.
https://fullfact.org/crime/how-many-...ice-are-there/
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  #85  
Old 02.12.2019, 07:22
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Re: A stabbing just happened (*fill in the blank*)

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Again with the phrasing..."put down". It gives a very clear view of your perspective.

You put down animals; dehumanising people is what gets us into this mess in the first place.
What got us into this mess in the first place was our governments going to middle-eastern countries and waging war on false pretenses, resulting in the destabilization of the Middle East. Taking out figures such as Saddam and Gaddafi was our gravest mistake and the resulting chaos and anarchy paved the way for ISIS and radical terrorism as we now know it.

Thankfully, with regards to this particular scenario, while some sensitive souls bleat about 'state murder', the rest of us are thankful that armed police deployed so quickly and ended the threat in the way that they deemed necessary to prevent further loss of innocent life.

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You have just owned yourself. The guy who got shot hadn't been tried or proved guilty of anything, had he?

This is why we have a criminal justice system to determine the punishment, and as you well know, the death penalty isn't available on our statute books.
Are you really defending a radical terrorist with a history of violent attacks who stabbed two young people and wanted everyone to believe he was wearing an explosive vest because he... didn't get to have a trial?

Surely you know full well that when armed police are deployed they have the right to shoot people to end a threat if they deem it necessary. No trial is needed in such situations... it's what they are trained for.

Last edited by Chuff; 02.12.2019 at 07:35.
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Old 02.12.2019, 07:53
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What got us into this mess in the first place was our governments going to middle-eastern countries and waging war on false pretenses, resulting in the destabilization of the Middle East. Taking out figures such as Saddam and Gaddafi was our gravest mistake and the resulting chaos and anarchy paved the way for ISIS and radical terrorism as we now know it.

Thankfully, with regards to this particular scenario, while some sensitive souls bleat about 'state murder', the rest of us are thankful that armed police deployed so quickly and ended the threat in the way that they deemed necessary to prevent further loss of innocent life.



Are you really defending a radical terrorist with a history of violent attacks who stabbed two young people and wanted everyone to believe he was wearing an explosive vest because he... didn't get to have a trial?

Surely you know full well that when armed police are deployed they have the right to shoot people to end a threat if they deem it necessary. No trial is needed in such situations... it's what they are trained for.
Enough with the bloodlust already.

The most desirable outcome is putting suspects through our criminal justice system, killing them is a last resort.

There will be an inquiry into the shooting, so let's wait for the results before going all Rambo, f-yeah!

I fully agree on our illegal wars precipitating this, no question at all there.

The real tragedy here was that the terrorist had recanted and wanted to be deradicalized, but we couldn't find the funds. Penny wise, pound foolish in the end, as is so often the case.
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  #87  
Old 02.12.2019, 08:07
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Re: A stabbing just happened (*fill in the blank*)

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Enough with the bloodlust already

The most desirable outcome is putting suspects through our criminal justice system, killing them is a last resort.

There will be an inquiry into the shooting, so let's wait for the results before going all Rambo, f-yeah.
So what you are basically saying is that you cannot differentiate between wanton bloodlust and being satisfied that the right to shoot to kill was exercised to eliminate a deadly threat to innocent lives. Yes, someone was shot... but was it unjustified give the exceptional and uncertain situation? Split-second decisions have to be made in life and death situations by people trained far better than you or me to do it, and engaging in moralistic grandstanding doesn't change that.
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  #88  
Old 02.12.2019, 08:12
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So what you are basically saying is that you cannot differentiate between wanton bloodlust and being satisfied that the right to shoot to kill was exercised to eliminate a deadly threat to innocent lives.
You literally said that shooting was "the least he deserved". What more did he deserve? A beating first? Strung up? Guantanamo'ed for a few years?

Don't take a barbaric position, then try and paint me as a bleeding heart liberal for questioning you on it.

Nobody should ever take satisfaction from the death of a fellow human - for me, your last few posts have crossed that line.
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  #89  
Old 02.12.2019, 08:19
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Re: A stabbing just happened (*fill in the blank*)

Imagine if he was a bank robber and took hostages (yeah, I've seen too many American movies)...would anyone here have felt sorry if he was shot dead? I don't think so.
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  #90  
Old 02.12.2019, 08:19
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Re: A stabbing just happened (*fill in the blank*)

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You literally said that shooting was "the least he deserved".
Where did he write that?
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  #91  
Old 02.12.2019, 08:19
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Re: A stabbing just happened (*fill in the blank*)

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Enough with the bloodlust already.

The most desirable outcome is putting suspects through our criminal justice system, killing them is a last resort.

There will be an inquiry into the shooting, so let's wait for the results before going all Rambo, f-yeah!

I fully agree on our illegal wars precipitating this, no question at all there.

The real tragedy here was that the terrorist had recanted and wanted to be deradicalized, but we couldn't find the funds. Penny wise, pound foolish in the end, as is so often the case.
Do you really actually believe this ? This guy who killed two young ladies doing their job, trying to help him.
That he is one who has been let down?
This is what you think?
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  #92  
Old 02.12.2019, 08:20
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Re: A stabbing just happened (*fill in the blank*)

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You literally said that shooting was "the least he deserved". What more did he deserve? A beating first? Strung up? Guantanamo'ed for a few years?

Don't take a barbaric position, then try and paint me as a bleeding heart liberal for questioning you on it.

Nobody should ever take satisfaction from the death of a fellow human - for me, your last few posts have crossed that line.
I freely and unashamedly admit that I take satisfaction in the fact that the armed police did their job and stopped what they perceived as a still-deadly threat from hurting more innocent people. I also hope that they do the same in future should a similar situation arise and it is deemed necessary. Why? Because I can take such things in the rational context of the situation without starting to use knee-jerk terms like 'Rambo', 'bloodlust' and other such silly arm-flapping sentiments that aren't appopriate to the situation.
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  #93  
Old 02.12.2019, 08:31
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Do you really actually believe this ? This guy who killed two young ladies doing their job, trying to help him.
That he is one who has been let down?
This is what you think?
Do I really believe criminal punishment should ideally be decided by the legal system? Funnily enough, yes.

Perhaps we should instead just dispense our own justice and be done with it?
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  #94  
Old 02.12.2019, 08:35
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Where did he write that?
Chuff is a very naughty boy, who deserves to be dealt with to the fullest extent of forum law...He initially wrote this:

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I have zero sympathy for any terrorist, that having just slaughtered random innocents, is killed in these circumstances. It's the least they deserve.
Then after I called him out on it, ninja edited it to this:

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I have zero sympathy for any terrorist, that having just slaughtered random innocents, is killed in these circumstances.
The surefire sign of a lost argument, I rest my case m'lod.
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  #95  
Old 02.12.2019, 09:38
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Re: A stabbing just happened (*fill in the blank*)

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Chuff is a very naughty boy, who deserves to be dealt with to the fullest extent of forum law...He initially wrote this:



Then after I called him out on it, ninja edited it to this:



The surefire sign of a lost argument, I rest my case m'lod.
Sigh, come on StirB let's not turn this into a kiddy argument. I frequently edit my posts to clarify things or express a point better after rereading it. It has zero bearing on my perception winning or losing an argument except in your own mind.

If I am being honest think your arguments in this thread are childish and bordering on ridiculous.
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Old 02.12.2019, 09:46
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Sigh, come on StirB let's not turn this into a kiddy argument. I frequently edit my posts to clarify things or express a point better after rereading it. It has zero bearing on my perception winning or losing an argument except in your own mind.

If I am being honest think your arguments in this thread are childish and bordering on ridiculous.
Not sure how you can say sneakily removing the main thrust of my point - your delight at the death of the fella, and indeed your desire for him to be punished more than a quick death - is a clarification.

You are free to think that my desire for everyone to have a fair trial is childish, that's fair enough, but don't try and obfuscate your views on it to make your point more valid - you can see it has only lead to confusion and not clarified anything.

I am also free to think that delight at a human dying is a bit ropey, and that your tacit desire for him to be tortured is beyond the pale.

Each to their own, eh?
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  #97  
Old 02.12.2019, 09:59
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Re: A stabbing just happened (*fill in the blank*)

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Not sure how you can say sneakily removing the main thrust of my point - your delight at the death of the fella, and indeed your desire for him to be punished more than a quick death - is a clarification.

You are free to think that my desire for everyone to have a fair trial is childish, that's fair enough, but don't try and obfuscate your views on it to make your point more valid - you can see it has only lead to confusion and not clarified anything.

I am also free to think that delight at a human dying is a bit ropey, and that your tacit desire for him to be tortured is beyond the pale.

Each to their own, eh?
Delight at his death? See, this is what I mean... you are now being downright silly by twisting words to suit your own argument and engaging in some rather strong virtue signalling, which I don't think is impressing anyone.

I am happy that they neutralized the threat that had already attacked and injured two innocent people and I do not believe the guy deserves any mercy for committing such an appalling act... to even turn that into being some kind of 'bloodthirsty', 'rambo'-esque maniac shows that your level of maturity in these kind of discussions is extremely low and you simply let your emotions get the better of your rational side.

EDIT - In the end I am happy to disagree as your disapproval means absolutely nothing in the face of what I firmly believe, which is that they did the right thing in an exceptional situation and all of the evidence seems to back that up.
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Old 02.12.2019, 09:59
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Re: A stabbing just happened (*fill in the blank*)

So who's for extrajudicial state executions and torture?

I'm pretty sure they'd only use it for terrorists. It's not like the state has any history of abusing its power over the life and death of its citizens...
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Old 02.12.2019, 10:04
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Delight at his death? See, this is what I mean... you are now being downright silly by twisting words in a most silly to suit your own argument and virtue signalling, which I don't think is impressing anyone.
Delight, satisfaction, potato, potahto…

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I freely and unashamedly admit that I take satisfaction in the fact that the armed police did their job and stopped what they perceived as a still-deadly threat from hurting more innocent people.
Can you explain what you meant when you said that killing him was the least they should do? Or are you admitting that was actually a mistake, and you are satisfied with just a killing?
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  #100  
Old 03.12.2019, 07:26
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Re: A stabbing just happened (*fill in the blank*)

I’ve not seen anyone argue for capital punishment. Shooting a terrorist that has already killed and injured a number of people is fine. The two things are like night and day.

Would it have been preferable for Usman Khan to spend the rest of his life behind bars in solitary confinement? Yes. Are we bothered that he was shot by police? Absolutely not.
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