Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics  
View Poll Results: Do poor kids have a chance?
Yes! Even as much as white ones. 2 25.00%
No! White kids are better. 1 12.50%
I don't give a .... 2 25.00%
I thing Biden will be a great president. 3 37.50%
Voters: 8. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #81  
Old 12.08.2019, 12:05
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 17,714
Groaned at 312 Times in 253 Posts
Thanked 16,856 Times in 9,265 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Do poor kids have a chance

Quote:
View Post
So you've still not answered the question: why is it lazy to pursue a tertiary education? Your brother's was free. By your logic his degree is doubly worthless. Any job he got because of it, without value. Interesting.

Do you/have you employed people or are you a one man band? When looking over CVs what qualities do you deem most important? What about for your accountant, doctor, solicitors etc? Do you have nieces and nephews? Are they illiterate and innumerate? How are scientific advancements made? By who? Enquiring minds etc etc.

Do you count your own money or do you have someone for that?
He has 4 degrees now, studying for a 5th plus a PHD after original graduatatiom, granted he did work as a don at Cambridge before doing 12 years in the real world.

Both, I take the person best suited for the work to be done, usually a recommendation or someone I already know. I know more innumerate people than illiterate, I find it staggering that people with a degree can have such a poor handle on maths.

Banks produce statements so I leave the counting to others.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank fatmanfilms for this useful post:
  #82  
Old 12.08.2019, 12:09
RufusB's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: In my head. And UK. Ex-Basel.
Posts: 4,293
Groaned at 93 Times in 83 Posts
Thanked 8,267 Times in 3,297 Posts
RufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Do poor kids have a chance

Quote:
View Post
He has 4 degrees now, studying for a 5th plus a PHD after original graduatatiom, granted he did work as a don at Cambridge before doing 12 years in the real world.

Both, I take the person best suited for the work to be done, usually a recommendation or someone I already know. I know more innumerate people than illiterate, I find it staggering that people with a degree can have such a poor handle on maths.

Banks produce statements so I leave the counting to others.


But do any of those degrees have any value? The very fact you toss around the phrase Cambridge don suggests you think they do otherwise you'd just say your brother failed at life .
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank RufusB for this useful post:
  #83  
Old 12.08.2019, 12:20
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Do poor kids have a chance

Quote:
View Post
But do any of those degrees have any value? The very fact you toss around the phrase Cambridge don suggests you think they do otherwise you'd just say your brother failed at life .
This thread is drawing parallels for me in that it reminds me of a neighbour who lived at the back of my parents' house who never failed to somehow bring up into conversation the non-value of degrees. The guy worked for the post office all his life in basically the same department and had made it to department supervisor by the time he reached retirement.

He had no time for anyone who had furthered their education, blustering that they arrived at the PO "fresh out of university with no idea how to use a pencil sharpener" and that they "needed a calculator for everything".

Turns out that the majority of graduates soon jumped up the ranks and were managing him and beyond, and he was majorly pissed off and bitter. He had just learned "on the job" and, to be fair, probably knew the job inside out. He just didn't have any other experience or capacity.

Sometimes it's what people DON'T say, which gives away their true inner turmoil.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #84  
Old 12.08.2019, 12:23
RufusB's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: In my head. And UK. Ex-Basel.
Posts: 4,293
Groaned at 93 Times in 83 Posts
Thanked 8,267 Times in 3,297 Posts
RufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Do poor kids have a chance

Quote:
This thread is drawing parallels for me in that it reminds me of a neighbour who lived at the back of my parents' house who never failed to somehow bring up into conversation the non-value of degrees. The guy worked for the post office all his life in basically the same department and had made it to department supervisor by the time he reached retirement.

He had no time for anyone who had furthered their education, blustering that they arrived at the PO "fresh out of university with no idea how to use a pencil sharpener" and that they "needed a calculator for everything".

Turns out that the majority of graduates soon jumped up the ranks and were managing him and beyond, and he was majorly pissed off and bitter. He had just learned "on the job" and, to be fair, probably knew the job inside out. He just didn't have any other experience or capacity.

Sometimes it's what people DON'T say, which gives away their true inner turmoil.
I think I used to work with him!
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank RufusB for this useful post:
  #85  
Old 12.08.2019, 13:01
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 17,714
Groaned at 312 Times in 253 Posts
Thanked 16,856 Times in 9,265 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Do poor kids have a chance

Quote:
View Post
But do any of those degrees have any value? The very fact you toss around the phrase Cambridge don suggests you think they do otherwise you'd just say your brother failed at life .
He did fine once he got a real job.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank fatmanfilms for this useful post:
  #86  
Old 12.08.2019, 13:02
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Do poor kids have a chance

Quote:
View Post
He did fine once he got a real job.
"Fine" in what way?
Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old 12.08.2019, 13:05
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 17,714
Groaned at 312 Times in 253 Posts
Thanked 16,856 Times in 9,265 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Do poor kids have a chance

Quote:
"Fine" in what way?
Retired in his early 40's, hence the time for the other degrees.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank fatmanfilms for this useful post:
  #88  
Old 12.08.2019, 13:10
MusicChick's Avatar
modified, reprogrammed and doctored≤
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: La Cote
Posts: 14,574
Groaned at 261 Times in 191 Posts
Thanked 16,853 Times in 8,707 Posts
MusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Do poor kids have a chance

Quote:
View Post
He did fine once he got a real job.
People can study while they have a real job. The definitions of success vary.
Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old 12.08.2019, 13:22
taduncombe's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Basel
Posts: 71
Groaned at 11 Times in 11 Posts
Thanked 269 Times in 106 Posts
taduncombe has earned the respect of manytaduncombe has earned the respect of manytaduncombe has earned the respect of many
Re: Do poor kids have a chance

Quote:
View Post
Wasn't a heated discussion about the low upward social mobility in the USA a while ago? Most people seemed to agree on this thing.
It's impossible to ignore at this point. The American dream is alive and well... just not in America. The "Great Gatsby Curve" is often used to highlight the phenomenon. Societies with high inequality have the worst social mobility (e.g. US, UK, Italy). High social mobility countries are Denmark, Norway, Finland, and Canada.


Last edited by taduncombe; 12.08.2019 at 15:13.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank taduncombe for this useful post:
  #90  
Old 12.08.2019, 13:42
Belgianmum's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Neuch‚tel
Posts: 11,221
Groaned at 168 Times in 151 Posts
Thanked 17,233 Times in 7,347 Posts
Belgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Do poor kids have a chance

Quote:
View Post
He did fine once he got a real job.
Whatís a real job?
How does it compare to an unreal job?
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Belgianmum for this useful post:
  #91  
Old 12.08.2019, 13:54
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: ZH
Posts: 6,643
Groaned at 58 Times in 47 Posts
Thanked 9,119 Times in 3,786 Posts
doropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Do poor kids have a chance

Quote:
View Post
It does not take much imagination to give up and walk away at 16, especially if you donít have to. To have no choice at 16 due economic or other reasons but to leave and to go on and build a good life for oneís self is commendable, but to do so due to laziness and lack of ambition is not.
Jim, I don't agree with most of what fatmanfilms and musicchick are posting on this thread, and find the lack of understanding by some on this thread about what it means to be truly poor almost breathtakingly callous, but to be fair, I don't really have the impression that fatmanfilms left school at 16 due to lack of ambition.

He just saw his ambition as different from a school-leaving certificate. His ambition was not to become educated, in the formal sense, but to get rich. It seems he has achieved this. With his riches, he now buys the services of other people, some of whom can serve him at all only thanks to their fine education, such as his non-lazy surgeon.

I do agree with you, though, that having no choice at all, but to leave school for economic or other reasons, can leave one with very few options.

Individuals who come from poor backgrounds, can sometimes - but rarely, when taken statistically against the masses of people who are, who become and who remain poor - rise up and achieve amazing things, in terms of wealth, relational and/or professional success, with and without education.

Some people achieve this through their own vision, ambition, drive and choice (and all those other pretty words on the motivational posters and tea-towels) yet most of those who get out of poverty and make a better life manage to do so because somewhere, somehow, someone else (with more resources than they had) gave them a lucky break. The part that is truly theirs is the preparedness to grab the opportunity when it presented itself.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank doropfiz for this useful post:
  #92  
Old 12.08.2019, 14:02
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Do poor kids have a chance

99% of success, just like 99% of poverty, is sheer dumb luck. The fact that any of us thinks we achieved anything by our own sweat merely shows how stupid we are. We didn't. We just got lucky.

But, you know, if it floats anyone's boat to imagine that they created their own success, why not let them have their little fantasy? It isn't likely to affect anyone else's luck after all.

I think the ancient Greeks had a better grasp of this than most modern Europeans and Americans, lack of access to the internet notwithstanding.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #93  
Old 12.08.2019, 14:15
MusicChick's Avatar
modified, reprogrammed and doctored≤
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: La Cote
Posts: 14,574
Groaned at 261 Times in 191 Posts
Thanked 16,853 Times in 8,707 Posts
MusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Do poor kids have a chance

Quote:
View Post
You can, and many can, but most can't.
Unfortunately. I am not saying everybody can..nor that the most can.

I welcome inspiring stories of those poor who made it. They did not by any means rely on luck. Swiss schools nor social system do not let poor kids rely on luck, either.

We as integrated people did not rely on luck.

Fatman and John were not lucky, imho. And if so, they made damn hard sure to be prepared for their luck. It is inspirational and they broke it down for us as a series of decisions they made. Why overinterpret or minimize somebody's achievement.
Reply With Quote
  #94  
Old 12.08.2019, 14:23
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Do poor kids have a chance

Quote:
View Post
Unfortunately. I am not saying everybody can..nor that the most can.

I welcome inspiring stories of those poor who made it. They did not by any means rely on luck. Swiss schools nor social system do not let poor kids rely on luck, either.

We as integrated people did not rely on luck.

Fatman and John were not lucky, imho. And if so, they made damn hard sure to be prepared for their luck. It is inspirational and they broke it down for us as a series of decisions they made. Why overinterpret or minimize somebody's achievement.
Because, contrary to our ego-massaging fantasies, none of us has the control over the events which govern our lives that we imagine ourselves to have.

But you go on believing, if it makes you happy. We all have our mind drugs, eh?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #95  
Old 12.08.2019, 14:25
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: KŁsnacht, Switzerland
Posts: 3,610
Groaned at 92 Times in 86 Posts
Thanked 9,928 Times in 4,466 Posts
Blueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Do poor kids have a chance

Going back to the original topic:

Biden has become known for his 'misspeaks' along the campaign trail, however, he always clarifies or corrects himself. He's big enough to freely admit when he's made a mistake or was wrong in what he said, and he's done that throughout his political career. I don't believe he will be the next president, but as long as he's in the race, perhaps he can get the other candidates to up the ante. I, for one, will be very interested to see which candidate Biden puts his support behind when he is eliminated from the contest.

As a person, Biden has known immense personal tragedy but he's also seen the insides of the top job for 8 years. I reckon that after debating the other candidates, he'll have a good inkling for who will be a suitable Presidential candidate.

As for kids growing up poor...I was always fascinated by Maya Angelou's life story. She was a ballsy lady with gumption who had seen every side of life and rose to the top.

The arts, and particularly the music industry, are littered with successful people who knew abject poverty in their childhood. I used to watch 'Cribs' back in the day, because I was fascinated by what certain people chose to spend their wealth on. Time and again, you'd have people who only had one pair of threadbare sneakers to their name as a kid, who would buy hundreds of pairs of designer trainers. But there was one young rapper (I forget his name) who was deemed to be too young to live on his own when his crew made the big time. He had his own suite in a huge mansion with a couple of the other guys so that they could keep an eye on him. This kid was different enough from the others for him to stand out to me. He bought just enough of everything he needed and invested the rest of his money. Nothing was to excess, with one exception. He bought a huge chandelier for his bedroom to remind him of all the times his mum couldn't afford to pay the electricity bill and they lived by candlelight until she got paid.

There was, and still is, a lot of poverty in my UK hometown. I firmly believe that the morals of the parents affect a child's chances in life. Many of us will have heard things like "they've not got two pennies to rub together but they're honest, reliable, respectable, and their kids are always clean". There are so many important values to be taken from an upbringing like that.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Blueangel for this useful post:
  #96  
Old 12.08.2019, 14:25
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 7,493
Groaned at 274 Times in 206 Posts
Thanked 16,589 Times in 5,829 Posts
k_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Do poor kids have a chance

Quote:
View Post
Unfortunately. I am not saying everybody can..nor that the most can.

I welcome inspiring stories of those poor who made it. They did not by any means rely on luck. Swiss schools nor social system do not let poor kids rely on luck, either.

We as integrated people did not rely on luck.

Fatman and John were not lucky, imho. And if so, they made damn hard sure to be prepared for their luck. It is inspirational and they broke it down for us as a series of decisions they made. Why overinterpret or minimize somebody's achievement.

Many of us on this forum actually did rely on luck. They were born in the right country so that the could get their permit easily, to give one example. But that doesn't mean that people are not working hard.

And I am not overinterpreting or minimizing: I have the impression that some posters present it like everyone can be successful and that is simply not the case.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank k_and_e for this useful post:
  #97  
Old 12.08.2019, 14:28
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: ZH
Posts: 6,643
Groaned at 58 Times in 47 Posts
Thanked 9,119 Times in 3,786 Posts
doropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Do poor kids have a chance

Quote:
View Post
Unfortunately. I am not saying everybody can..nor that the most can.

I welcome inspiring stories of those poor who made it. They did not by any means rely on luck. Swiss schools nor social system do not let poor kids rely on luck, either.

We as integrated people did not rely on luck.

Fatman and John were not lucky, imho. And if so, they made damn hard sure to be prepared for their luck. It is inspirational and they broke it down for us as a series of decisions they made. Why overinterpret or minimize somebody's achievement.
Those inspiring stories of those poor people who made it... have you actually ever read or heard ONE such story which did not involve some amazing good luck?

Swiss schools do have some poor children, but not very many. Most children in Swiss schools have reliable shelter, suffient clothing, access to medical care, at least some and more or less enough food (though not nutritionally balanced) and at least one adult living in the same premises (which may or may not be a good thing, depending on the competence and problems of the adult). In the few cases I've known of really poor parents in Switzerland who are struggling to do what they can for their children, I have not seen evidence of the Swiss schools doing anything at all to aleviate that poverty.

Not sure what you mean with as being an "integrated person", but if you mean educated and fed and clothed... yes, yes, and yes, much of that derived from having had the good fortune (luck) that someone else provided those basics for us, so that we could have the time and space to think about something else.

Perhaps some people tend to the one extreme, clinging to the comforting thought of imagining themselves as omnipotent to overcome all obstacles, while others live at the opposite extreme of seeing all power as outside of themselves such that they are helpless until someone else does something to help them.

In reality, how far up or down that scale one is depends on poverty and wealth, and sometimes upon health. The richer, the more one can believe in the glory of free choice. The poorer, the more one is forced into small spaces.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank doropfiz for this useful post:
  #98  
Old 12.08.2019, 14:36
MusicChick's Avatar
modified, reprogrammed and doctored≤
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: La Cote
Posts: 14,574
Groaned at 261 Times in 191 Posts
Thanked 16,853 Times in 8,707 Posts
MusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Do poor kids have a chance

Quote:
View Post
Many of us on this forum actually did rely on luck. They were born in the right country so that the could get their permit easily, to give one example. But that doesn't mean that people are not working hard.

And I am not overinterpreting or minimizing: I have the impression that some posters present it like everyone can be successful and that is simply not the case.
Naw, nobody is. These are personal testimonies. I bring people like that to my classes, it works well. Very concrete and in a country that insures luck so it would happen.
Reply With Quote
  #99  
Old 12.08.2019, 14:36
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Do poor kids have a chance

Quote:
View Post

Fatman and John were not lucky, imho. And if so, they made damn hard sure to be prepared for their luck. It is inspirational and they broke it down for us as a series of decisions they made.
Presumably they were "lucky" in that a life-changing event didn't randomly pop up and scupper or derail their plans?

It only takes one major accident or a diagnosis of something awful, or a family break up or a death to completely change the course of your life where you have to put up with scraping by instead of flying high.

Obviously many things can be overcome and survived, and you can get out your other motivational poster, "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger", but in many cases the reality is that a massive setback forces you to simply rely on plan B, C or all the way down to Z.


Quote:
View Post
Why overinterpret or minimize somebody's achievement.
Why put it on a forum in the first place if you don't want people to interpret it?
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #100  
Old 12.08.2019, 14:37
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 28,253
Groaned at 1,897 Times in 1,440 Posts
Thanked 33,290 Times in 15,884 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Do poor kids have a chance

Quote:
View Post
High social mobility countries are Denmark, Norway, Finland, and Canada.
None of which I'd ever want to live in!

Tom
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Do I have a chance for employment in Switzerland as a non-EU national? ees Employment 2 30.11.2012 12:46
Things to do in Vevey on a Saturday when you're not dead, but have heaps of kids? guyc Travel/day trips/free time 4 14.08.2012 23:52
Do Swiss people have small wallets or do I just have too much money? scrambled General off-topic 31 17.08.2011 12:58
Working couples with kids - what kind of help do you have? kri Family matters/health 42 03.11.2010 15:51


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 00:33.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0