Climate change/Greta Thunberg [merged threads]

[omtatsat]

	Quote:	Lasers pew pew pew
	This is an example of how I don't understand the skeptics. In making your claim, do you consider how much Petrol (for example) is taxed in Western Europe? How come you don't claim that fossil fuels (which are heavily taxed) are a making making scam? Are the majority of scientists involved in climate change research involved in this money making scam also?

Maybe you should consider which companies are paying these scientists?

[Lasers pew pew pew]

	Quote:	omtatsat
	Maybe you should consider which companies are paying these scientists?

Hmmmm, where to begin?
Maybe you should consider which companies support the anti-climate change agenda.
I'll give you a clue.... they often have a vested interest in fossil fuels. You might then ask yourself if this vested interest influences their actions.

According to Wikipedia; Thousands of scientists and other experts contribute on a voluntary basis to writing and reviewing reports (IPCC reports).
The IPCC provides an internationally accepted authority on climate change,[11] producing reports that have the agreement of leading climate scientists and consensus from participating governments.

If man-made climate change is all a hoax, it is the most elaborate well run hoax imaginable involving scientists, universities and organisations all over the world, working in such perfect harmony, its as if each involved party has access to the exact same falsified data, all of which is coincidentally backed up by anecdotal evidence. All the while, bastions of morality like oil companies suffer outrageous slander.

	Quote:	omtatsat
	Maybe you should consider which companies are paying these scientists?

Maybe you should consider this.



(posted this once before on here but it's relevant here)

[amogles]

	Quote:
	Maybe you should consider this. (posted this once before on here but it's relevant here)

97% of the world's scientists?

How many of 97% of the world's scientists are actually climate scientists?

And it's not as if there aren't plenty of billionaires, senators and business interests throwing their weight on the other side too.

But guilt by association doesn't make one's arguments right or wrong.

[Danieldreier]

Climate change is an abstract concept which detracts from real and pressing environmental issues and is primarily used as a marketing gag to promote further consumerism. If the younger generations were actually concerned about climate change, consumption would be steadily declining. Statistics show that consumption is steadily increasing - triggered on by the hype around "green" products.

True environmentalists would be riding one manual bicycle and using 1 electronic device (if any) for a minimum of 20 years to compensate for the energy consumption used to create it. Todays "green" consumers fill endless landfills with Lithium-, Cobalt- and aluminum-consuming electronic devices fueled by strip-mines, mass energy consumption and mass pollution. Out of sight, out of mind.

The impact of marketing and psychology - particularly on adolescents and young adults who are more vulnerable - never ceases to astound me. I know, because I was one of them not too long ago. At that age I was always blaming "they" and "them" without talking to the man in the mirror.

[k_and_e]

	Quote:
	Maybe you should consider this. (posted this once before on here but it's relevant here)

It's indeed an environmental crisis. Not only a climate change caused by humans but also excessive use of resources.

It's just strange that nobody dares to mention the elephant in the room. Instead, it seems to be more about symbolic measures.

[amogles]

	Quote:	Danieldreier
	Climate change is an abstract concept which detracts from real and pressing environmental issues and is primarily used as a marketing gag to promote further consumerism. If the younger generations were actually concerned about climate change, consumption would be steadily declining. Statistics show that consumption is steadily increasing - triggered on by the hype around "green" products. True environmentalists would be riding one manual bicycle and using 1 electronic device (if any) for a minimum of 20 years to compensate for the energy consumption used to create it. Todays "green" consumers fill endless landfills with Lithium-, Cobalt- and aluminum-consuming electronic devices fueled by strip-mines, mass energy consumption and mass pollution. Out of sight, out of mind. The impact of marketing and psychology - particularly on adolescents and young adults who are more vulnerable - never ceases to astound me. I know, because I was one of them not too long ago. At that age I was always blaming "they" and "them" without talking to the man in the mirror.

This, absolutely.

I'm sick and tired of reading facebook posts by entitled mums who drive their kids to a climate protest in their SUV and then post pictures of Greta and how some other people are to blame for everything. Typically evil rich people who form some back room cabal to control the world (even if they carefully avoid the word joos, and would be shocked if you pointed it out to them). No. The future starts with yourself. There are lots of easy things each one of us can do to reduce our climate footprint. Lead by example, not by accusation.

As Mr. Putin says, Sweden is rich, Greta is well off and comfortable, how do you explain this to millions of Africans and Asians living in poverty that they cannot get to where Sweden, or elsewhere is because of environmental issues ?



Climate change/Greta need to have realistic and achievable goals !



I am fully in concordance that efforts need to be made, but first they must come from the so called developed countries, US & EU to name but two countries, with the EU being the most ardent of the drum bangers.



In addition to this and most importantly the goals need to be realistic as persuading Africa and Asia with pipe dreams is a total waste of time and will do more harm than good.

[st2lemans]

	Quote:
	As Mr. Putin says, Sweden is rich, Greta is well off and comfortable.

I am in Sweden at the moment, on a fast train to Stockholm to get my plane back to civilization!

Swedish food makes Swiss-German food seem exciting!

And Swiss trains are smoother.

Tom

[omtatsat]

	Quote:	Urs Max
	Pardon me roegner but if omtatsat's post was out of line (I don't think it is, you can't call out double standards without getting personal), ZR's (who attacks everybody with an opinion different from hers) is as well.

Thanks. It's called discrimination. ZR is a reputed member!

[amogles]

	Quote:	st2lemans
	I am in Sweden at the moment, on a fast train to Stockholm to get my plane back to civilization! Swedish food makes Swiss-German food seem exciting! And Swiss trains are smoother. Tom

But they have some nice chicks though.

And Swedes sure do know how to party.

[Urs Max]

	Quote:	Danieldreier
	True environmentalists would be riding one manual bicycle and using 1 electronic device (if any) for a minimum of 20 years to compensate for the energy consumption used to create it. Todays "green" consumers fill endless landfills with Lithium-, Cobalt- and aluminum-consuming electronic devices fueled by strip-mines, mass energy consumption and mass pollution. Out of sight, out of mind. The impact of marketing and psychology - particularly on adolescents and young adults who are more vulnerable - never ceases to astound me. I know, because I was one of them not too long ago. At that age I was always blaming "they" and "them" without talking to the man in the mirror.

That's the point, and also the problem.

30-40-50 years ago "die Alternativen, Grüne, etc" were actually promoting and taking action. Reduce temperature in your home to 18°, reduce usage of your car as much as you can (if you can't avoid having one in the first place), replace cotton products (by wool for example, not sure how effective that actually is, but still), etc. Probably some of it was a bit naive, perhaps not everything was really effective, but there's always a learning curve involved and it was perfectly clear that people need to start with themselves and voluntarily reduce their own living standard.

Today this would need to happen in the full knowledge that under the current circumstances action taken here is at best a drop in the bucket considering emissions by the biggest producers, USA and China primarily, who don't give a rats ass, dwarf the domestic ones.

So, in addition to raising fuel prices the second thing to do is actually somewhat along the lines of what Trump's been doing for about two years now:
Increase import tariffs across the board.

That would make repatriation of production more viable, which in turn would reduce unnecessary long-distance transports give us back control on production standards in the repatriated facilities. But of course this, too, would mean reduced purchase power; as most always that would hit the less-well-off the most whereas the rich could still buy their way out.

[Lasers pew pew pew]

	Quote:	amogles
	97% of the world's scientists? How many of 97% of the world's scientists are actually climate scientists? And it's not as if there aren't plenty of billionaires, senators and business interests throwing their weight on the other side too. But guilt by association doesn't make one's arguments right or wrong.

For a topic rooted in science, what makes one's argument right or wrong is logic. The overwhelming body of evidence, actual evidence, not conspiracy theory supports with 95% certainty that humans influence climate change.

I think it would be great if people built on the logic of your guilt by association statement and questioned what they believe, its basis and why.

[omtatsat]

Science wants to keep the world in ignorance

	Quote:	omtatsat
	Science wants to keep the world in ignorance

Difficult though it was, I think you've managed to achieve a new low in posting standards here.

[Lasers pew pew pew]

	Quote:
	Difficult though it was, I think you've managed to achieve a new low in posting standards here.

Agreed!
I realise now I would have been better served explaining climate change to my cat than engaging with Omtatsat.

[Chuff]

	Quote:	omtatsat
	Science wants to keep the world in ignorance

[k_and_e]

	Quote:	omtatsat
	Science wants to keep the world in ignorance

All Friday goals achieved. We can move to Saturday now.

	Quote:
	Difficult though it was, I think you've managed to achieve a new low in posting standards here.

Underestimate Omtatsat at your own risk.....

[st2lemans]

	Quote:	amogles
	But they have some nice chicks though. And Swedes sure do know how to party.

Only on the weekend!

Tom