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  #121  
Old 01.10.2019, 11:46
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Re: The threat of Climate Change is bigger than our angst with Greta Thunberg

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I've done all these things years and years ago. Before Greta was born even. Not to follow some mass hysteria but because of common sense. And I remain skeptical about man made climate change, but I do believe in conserving finite resources.
I don't know how people can be skeptical about man made climate change.

One of the things that irritates me the most about some (many) skeptics is that they remain unconvinced by the groundswell of scientific opinion, often on the basis of some perceived inaccuracy in some model, but then happily accept the benefits of the same technological fields without question in other areas.

Or even some skeptics who think the science isn't exact enough but then go to church every Sunday.
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  #122  
Old 01.10.2019, 12:28
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Re: The threat of Climate Change is bigger than our angst with Greta Thunberg

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I don't know how people can be skeptical about man made climate change.

One of the things that irritates me the most about some (many) skeptics is that they remain unconvinced by the groundswell of scientific opinion, often on the basis of some perceived inaccuracy in some model, but then happily accept the benefits of the same technological fields without question in other areas.

Or even some skeptics who think the science isn't exact enough but then go to church every Sunday.

How? Itīs understandable, there are so many truths and lies and half truths and almost lies flying around that people will choose what they think is best. Itīs irritating that we are now at an age where there is so much information available that we can no longer process it sensibly. We are back in the dark ages.
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  #123  
Old 01.10.2019, 12:49
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Re: The threat of Climate Change is bigger than our angst with Greta Thunberg

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I don't know how people can be skeptical about man made climate change.
Your refusal to accept that man made climate change sceptics exist does not mean that man made climate change sceptics do not exist.

Does that make you a climate change sceptic sceptic?
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  #124  
Old 01.10.2019, 13:04
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Re: The threat of Climate Change is bigger than our angst with Greta Thunberg

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I don't know how people can be skeptical about man made climate change.

One of the things that irritates me the most about some (many) skeptics is that they remain unconvinced by the groundswell of scientific opinion, often on the basis of some perceived inaccuracy in some model, but then happily accept the benefits of the same technological fields without question in other areas.

Or even some skeptics who think the science isn't exact enough but then go to church every Sunday.
Think of it this way.

Science is about answering quantitaive questions. A scientist can maybe tell you what the effect of doing one precisely defined action would be. You change the input and the output changes and in the black box there is a formula that maps the input to the output. For example you drop a pebble from the Eiffel Tower. Science can tell you how long that rock will take to reach the ground, what trajectory it will follow, and in that calculation it will take lots of things into account including the distance, the gravitational force, air pressure and drag, wind velocity, coriolis deflection. You get a result with a margin of accuracy. Change any of those inputs and run the calculation again and the output will probably also change.

So maybe a climate model can correlate the belching of cows to the erosion of the East Anglian coastline, within a certain margin of accuracy. If we kill all cows in the world today, climatologists can maybe tell us the hectarage of East Anglia that is saved from erosion over the next hundred years. That is a useful benchmark fact to know if you are a politician or planner, or even more so if you are the farmer whose land is being eroded. If when killing all these cows we celebrate the land we save by having the mother of all barbeques, again, scientists can tell us how much land that is costing us. And we can decide if that is worth it.

But if you now say, climate scientists say, we must kill all cows. That is something entirely different. That is not a scientific question but one of political expediency or ethics or whatever (I know that's not what they are saying, but some exaggeration of position may be needed to make the point). That's not the type of question scientists should be answering. There is no right or wrong in science itself, there is only right or wrong in what we do with science. It's not science to say, diesel cars may not park in certain parts of a city (as is happening in Germany now). That's at best a long armed interpretation of science with a personal vendetta rolled in. It's not science to say vaccination should be obligatory, but it is science to say, vaccination, if done in this and this way, would save this many lives.

In other words, science should not dictate policy but science should answer questions of policy makers, and of the public at large.
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  #125  
Old 01.10.2019, 13:56
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Re: The threat of Climate Change is bigger than our angst with Greta Thunberg

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How? Itīs understandable, there are so many truths and lies and half truths and almost lies flying around that people will choose what they think is best. Itīs irritating that we are now at an age where there is so much information available that we can no longer process it sensibly. We are back in the dark ages.
No really, no. Science, real proper science, is pretty well united on the subject apart from a tiny handful of mavericks that are mostly sponsored by oil or coal mining interests. It is only persons of very little brain like Trump that don't get it.

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Your refusal to accept that man made climate change sceptics exist does not mean that man made climate change sceptics do not exist.

Does that make you a climate change sceptic sceptic?
Technically he only doesn't understand why they exist not doubt that they do exist. Although that probably still makes him a climate change sceptic sceptic.
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  #126  
Old 01.10.2019, 14:03
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Re: The threat of Climate Change is bigger than our angst with Greta Thunberg

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Technically he only doesn't understand why they exist not doubt that they do exist. Although that probably still makes him a climate change sceptic sceptic.
Technically, if you accept that something exists but are absolutely unable to explain why it exists, you are admitting there is an inadequacy in the scientific models
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  #127  
Old 01.10.2019, 14:04
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Re: The threat of Climate Change is bigger than our angst with Greta Thunberg

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Technically, if you accept that something exists but are absolutely unable to explain why it exists, you are admitting there is an inadequacy in the scientific models
Ohhhhhh no I'm not!
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  #128  
Old 01.10.2019, 14:05
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Re: The threat of Climate Change is bigger than our angst with Greta Thunberg

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Your refusal to accept that man made climate change sceptics exist does not mean that man made climate change sceptics do not exist.

Does that make you a climate change sceptic sceptic?
Wow, that is either some of the most petty pedantism I have ever read, or a worrying lack of comprehension skills. bordering on stupidity. It's obvious pewie was inferring that there is too much evidence for man-made climate change to deny it, not that he didn't actually believe that climate change deniers exist.

I don't see how any rational person can refute man-made climate change, considering the massive levels of toxins/gases/etc we are pumping into our ecosystem on a continual basis, and almost all of it within the last couple of centuries. It is utterly ludicrous to even suggest otherwise.

Thankfully, the recent reduction in size of the hole in the ozone layer (https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-49714987) shows that such things can be combated were all governments able to meet strict targets. However, that isn't likely to happen.
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  #129  
Old 01.10.2019, 14:06
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Re: The threat of Climate Change is bigger than our angst with Greta Thunberg

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Wow, that is either some of the most petty pedantism I have ever read, or a worrying lack of comprehension skills. bordering on stupidity. It's obvious pewie was inferring that there is too much evidence for man-made climate change to deny it, not that he didn't actually believe that climate change deniers exist.

I don't see how any rational person can refute man-made climate change, considering the massive levels of toxins/gases/etc we are pumping into our ecosystem on a continual basis, and almost all of it within the last couple of centuries. It is utterly ludicrous to even suggest otherwise.

Thankfully, the recent reduction in size of the the ozone layer shows that it can be combated were all governments able to meet strict targets. However, that isn't likely to happen.
I wonder whether there are scientific studies on the effects of climate change on the depletion of irony.
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  #130  
Old 01.10.2019, 17:26
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Re: The threat of Climate Change is bigger than our angst with Greta Thunberg

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Thankfully, the recent reduction in size of the hole in the ozone layer (https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-49714987) shows that such things can be combated were all governments able to meet strict targets. However, that isn't likely to happen.
We're discussing about a global problem and want to solve it....tribally. Everyone wants to grab the biggest piece of whatever is left (e.g. resources) otherwise someone else will!..so yeah. I mean isn't likely to happen any time soon.
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  #131  
Old 01.10.2019, 17:46
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Re: The threat of Climate Change is bigger than our angst with Greta Thunberg

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Thankfully, the recent reduction in size of the hole in the ozone layer (https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-49714987) shows that such things can be combated were all governments able to meet strict targets. However, that isn't likely to happen.
Fixing the ozon layer only demanded a ban on some chemicals that we could easily replace with others, and it did not need a change of how we lived and what we do, eat or drink, nor did it cost the end-consumer a lof of money.

So yeah, that was an easy one, fixing Co2 will demand a change of lifestyle and a huge truckload of money.

And it is often hypocritical, yeah I'd like to do my share but tbh I'm already waiting for the new generation gameconsoles to blast my 65" hours a day just for my amusement and I'll use the X3 to go grab some extra chips from the supermarket.
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  #132  
Old 02.10.2019, 10:57
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Re: The threat of Climate Change is bigger than our angst with Greta Thunberg

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Your refusal to accept that man made climate change sceptics exist does not mean that man made climate change sceptics do not exist.

Does that make you a climate change sceptic sceptic?
I often wonder whether the same type of people become climate change sceptics as those that become Eurosceptics, namely those that denigrate the findings of those world renowned Economists and learned
bodies that say Britain would be better off economically by remaining a member of the EU than leaving
the EU ?

In other words those that harangue the findings of scientists on climate change and economists who
reckon the UK would be better off staying in the EU on the grounds of 'vested interests'
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  #133  
Old 02.10.2019, 17:52
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Re: Climate change/Greta Thunberg [merged threads]

Whether to agree with climate change being man made or not, what I really dont like about climate 'solutions' is that they almost always come down to making things more expensive. Take gas for instance, to help the climate we have to reduce how much people buy by increasing the price. This always comes down to poor people being affected and rich people not. Who cares about 5 chf per liter when you make 30000 a month ? But at 4000chf a month its a different story.

Why not a system where gas prices stay the same but everyone gets a quota: only 50 liters per month. With centralised registration to prevent people buying other peoples quota. This is a much fairer system, and allows for the gradual reduction of quota.

But you never hear talk about this as it would affect the powers that be equally as all the plebs, and we cannot have that now can we ?
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  #134  
Old 02.10.2019, 18:09
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Re: Climate change/Greta Thunberg [merged threads]

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Whether to agree with climate change being man made or not, what I really dont like about climate 'solutions' is that they almost always come down to making things more expensive. Take gas for instance, to help the climate we have to reduce how much people buy by increasing the price. This always comes down to poor people being affected and rich people not. Who cares about 5 chf per liter when you make 30000 a month ? But at 4000chf a month its a different story.

Why not a system where gas prices stay the same but everyone gets a quota: only 50 liters per month. With centralised registration to prevent people buying other peoples quota. This is a much fairer system, and allows for the gradual reduction of quota.

But you never hear talk about this as it would affect the powers that be equally as all the plebs, and we cannot have that now can we ?
I think the new tax being proposed on airfares in Switzerland is similar. The rich people will not care if they pay an extra 30-120 CHF per ticket to fly. The average folks that need to travel regularly to the UK or USA or wherever for family reasons will get hit hard. Business expenses will go up. Not only that, but the travel industry employs millions of people, so changes need to consider all the factors not only the carbon footprint.
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  #135  
Old 02.10.2019, 18:10
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Re: Climate change/Greta Thunberg [merged threads]

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Whether to agree with climate change being man made or not, what I really dont like about climate 'solutions' is that they almost always come down to making things more expensive. Take gas for instance, to help the climate we have to reduce how much people buy by increasing the price. This always comes down to poor people being affected and rich people not. Who cares about 5 chf per liter when you make 30000 a month ? But at 4000chf a month its a different story.

Why not a system where gas prices stay the same but everyone gets a quota: only 50 liters per month. With centralised registration to prevent people buying other peoples quota. This is a much fairer system, and allows for the gradual reduction of quota.

But you never hear talk about this as it would affect the powers that be equally as all the plebs, and we cannot have that now can we ?
You can take it a step further: everyone gets a maximum ecological footprint that includes everything, from transport to heating to food production to the electronic gadgets you buy etc.
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  #136  
Old 02.10.2019, 18:24
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Re: Climate change/Greta Thunberg [merged threads]

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Whether to agree with climate change being man made or not, what I really dont like about climate 'solutions' is that they almost always come down to making things more expensive. Take gas for instance, to help the climate we have to reduce how much people buy by increasing the price. This always comes down to poor people being affected and rich people not. Who cares about 5 chf per liter when you make 30000 a month ? But at 4000chf a month its a different story.

Why not a system where gas prices stay the same but everyone gets a quota: only 50 liters per month. With centralised registration to prevent people buying other peoples quota. This is a much fairer system, and allows for the gradual reduction of quota.

But you never hear talk about this as it would affect the powers that be equally as all the plebs, and we cannot have that now can we ?
A lot of people wonder how they'll get to work if they used their 50 liters?
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  #137  
Old 02.10.2019, 18:52
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Re: Climate change/Greta Thunberg [merged threads]

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A lot of people wonder how they'll get to work if they used their 50 liters?
And this is how you get to real options for reducing the amount of gas used. When the ever reducing quota starts to impede you in your daily life, you stary to think about carpooling, public transport etc etc. Plus as you can see the impact of the gradual decrease of your quota, you start to think about maybe the next car should be smaller and more economical. Maybe a 1.2 is enough, no need for a 3.0 V6 as with the 1.2 in 4 years you will still be able to drive to work, but with the 3.0 halfway through the month your quota is used up.
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Old 02.10.2019, 19:05
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Re: Climate change/Greta Thunberg [merged threads]

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And this is how you get to real options for reducing the amount of gas used. When the ever reducing quota starts to impede you in your daily life, you stary to think about carpooling, public transport etc etc. Plus as you can see the impact of the gradual decrease of your quota, you start to think about maybe the next car should be smaller and more economical. Maybe a 1.2 is enough, no need for a 3.0 V6 as with the 1.2 in 4 years you will still be able to drive to work, but with the 3.0 halfway through the month your quota is used up.
Maybe the SBB should better align their train time tables.... if I drive to work, it is 1 hour, if I take the train it is 1 hour and 45 minutes. Much as I like taking the train, this is not an option right now.

And no, moving is not an option
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  #139  
Old 02.10.2019, 19:30
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Re: Climate change/Greta Thunberg [merged threads]

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Maybe the SBB should better align their train time tables.... if I drive to work, it is 1 hour, if I take the train it is 1 hour and 45 minutes. Much as I like taking the train, this is not an option right now.

And no, moving is not an option
Yep, well, thats what they mean when they say that it is not going to be comfortable and easy...

But keeping prices the same and introducing a quota system would be fair as it impacts poor and rich people alike. Plus it takes away the suspicion that governments just makes everything more expensive 'in the name of climate change' to get more money. Because that is what it looks like now, and this makes many people wary of the climate arguments.
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Old 02.10.2019, 19:32
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Re: The threat of Climate Change is bigger than our angst with Greta Thunberg

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I don't know how people can be skeptical about man made climate change.

One of the things that irritates me the most about some (many) skeptics is that they remain unconvinced by the groundswell of scientific opinion, often on the basis of some perceived inaccuracy in some model, but then happily accept the benefits of the same technological fields without question in other areas.

Or even some skeptics who think the science isn't exact enough but then go to church every Sunday.
Its made into such a big issue so as to enable them to hit YOU with more taxes ( CO2). . Its a money making machine thats all it is.
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