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  #161  
Old 03.10.2019, 07:46
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Re: Climate change/Greta Thunberg [merged threads]

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Simply because you can't accept thoughts opposite to your own and seek to discredit EF members
Please stop personal attacks!
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  #162  
Old 03.10.2019, 09:12
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Re: The threat of Climate Change is bigger than our angst with Greta Thunberg

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Its made into such a big issue so as to enable them to hit YOU with more taxes ( CO2). . Its a money making machine thats all it is.
This is an example of how I don't understand the skeptics.
In making your claim, do you consider how much Petrol (for example) is taxed in Western Europe?
How come you don't claim that fossil fuels (which are heavily taxed) are a making making scam?

Are the majority of scientists involved in climate change research involved in this money making scam also?
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  #163  
Old 03.10.2019, 09:14
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Re: Climate change/Greta Thunberg [merged threads]

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It really seems to belong to the Swiss mentality to be one of the first countries to implement such a tax.
Actually one of the last. Already exists across most of Europe.

Any how...why shouldn't air travel bear the same level of tax as road travel? Aviation fuel is exempt from the fuel taxes that land based travel has to pay giving it a highly unfair advantage. Jet fuel in Zürich costs about CHF 0.40 per litre - compare that with the price of diesel.

Would be much fairer than a simple air ticket levy and greatly encourage a drive to fuel efficiency.

Last edited by baboon; 03.10.2019 at 09:30.
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  #164  
Old 03.10.2019, 09:34
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Re: The threat of Climate Change is bigger than our angst with Greta Thunberg

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In making your claim, do you consider how much Petrol (for example) is taxed in Western Europe?
How come you don't claim that fossil fuels (which are heavily taxed) are a making making scam?
Fuel taxes here ARE a money-making scam.

Tom
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  #165  
Old 03.10.2019, 09:49
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Re: Climate change/Greta Thunberg [merged threads]

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No, this is how I see this as a thread. Itś a serious topic, that affects all. But itś being made a ridicule of.
No-one informed on the topic would contribute seriously to it. And I find that a shame for EF.

So nobody on EF is well-informed about this topic?
Who is well-informed about this topic?
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  #166  
Old 03.10.2019, 10:34
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Re: The threat of Climate Change is bigger than our angst with Greta Thunberg

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This is an example of how I don't understand the skeptics.
In making your claim, do you consider how much Petrol (for example) is taxed in Western Europe?
How come you don't claim that fossil fuels (which are heavily taxed) are a making making scam?

Are the majority of scientists involved in climate change research involved in this money making scam also?
Surely you know that omtstat is not a rational human being, for the sake of your sanity do not engage him in actual logical debate.

Last edited by Chuff; 03.10.2019 at 10:46.
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  #167  
Old 03.10.2019, 10:46
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Re: The threat of Climate Change is bigger than our angst with Greta Thunberg

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Fuel taxes here ARE a money-making scam.

Tom
So who is "money-making" from them? Or are you one of those nut jobs that objects to all government spending in principal? Would you rather have no roads, no education etc.?

Or perhaps instead of fuel duties you should pay individually per kilometer of road use covering the true full costs of every aspect? Pretty sure you'd be complaining even more loudly then...
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  #168  
Old 03.10.2019, 11:04
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Re: The threat of Climate Change is bigger than our angst with Greta Thunberg

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So who is "money-making" from them? Or are you one of those nut jobs that objects to all government spending in principal? Would you rather have no roads, no education etc.?

Or perhaps instead of fuel duties you should pay individually per kilometer of road use covering the true full costs of every aspect? Pretty sure you'd be complaining even more loudly then...
Read post above, same applies to st2lemans.
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  #169  
Old 03.10.2019, 11:14
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Re: Climate change/Greta Thunberg [merged threads]

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Please stop personal attacks!
Pardon me roegner but if omtatsat's post was out of line (I don't think it is, you can't call out double standards without getting personal), ZR's (who attacks everybody with an opinion different from hers) is as well.
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  #170  
Old 03.10.2019, 11:21
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Re: The threat of Climate Change is bigger than our angst with Greta Thunberg

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So who is "money-making" from them? Or are you one of those nut jobs that objects to all government spending in principal? Would you rather have no roads, no education etc.?

Or perhaps instead of fuel duties you should pay individually per kilometer of road use covering the true full costs of every aspect? Pretty sure you'd be complaining even more loudly then...

look here: https://www.ezv.admin.ch/ezv/de/home...oelsteuer.html
paragraph "Bedeutung der Mineralölsteuer"
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  #171  
Old 03.10.2019, 11:51
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Re: The threat of Climate Change is bigger than our angst with Greta Thunberg

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Fuel taxes here ARE a money-making scam.
Tom
Many say that Speed Camaras are just money making devices that does little to deter the serial
speedster while making all and sundery feel guilty, if they happen to be clocked for a 'just over
the limit' indiscretion.
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  #172  
Old 03.10.2019, 12:12
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Re: Climate change/Greta Thunberg [merged threads]

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Whether to agree with climate change being man made or not, what I really dont like about climate 'solutions' is that they almost always come down to making things more expensive. Take gas for instance, to help the climate we have to reduce how much people buy by increasing the price. This always comes down to poor people being affected and rich people not. Who cares about 5 chf per liter when you make 30000 a month ? But at 4000chf a month its a different story.

Why not a system where gas prices stay the same but everyone gets a quota: only 50 liters per month. With centralised registration to prevent people buying other peoples quota. This is a much fairer system, and allows for the gradual reduction of quota.
My bold.

I've always thought the quota system would be a good idea BUT I would take the diametrically opposite view of preventing people buying others' quota.

Everybody gets the same quota regardless of vehicle ownership (or age even) and you can do with it what you want. Poorer people could sell their quota or part of it, others could give/sell it to friends or relatives, tree huggers could let their quota lapse and rich people could buy quota at market value.

The central government could then over time reduce the overall quota in line with their targets. As the quota comes down the marginal cost of fuel starts to reflect its true cost.

This is a simple and fair system. Everyone has the right to pollute a bit and if you want to pollute more then you have to buy someone else's right from them.
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  #173  
Old 03.10.2019, 12:17
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Re: The threat of Climate Change is bigger than our angst with Greta Thunberg

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Fuel taxes here ARE a money-making scam.

Tom
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look here: https://www.ezv.admin.ch/ezv/de/home...oelsteuer.html
paragraph "Bedeutung der Mineralölsteuer"
Please define "money-making scam" [or scheme] in this context. How can fuel taxation be a scam when it's legal? Legal in the sense of, based on a certain law that mandates its implementation.

The way I see it, "money-making scheme" can only apply to private undertakings as taxes, whichever way they're collected or wherever they're sourced from, are ultimately spent for some legitimate purpose for the public good.
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This is a simple and fair system. Everyone has the right to pollute a bit and if you want to pollute more then you have to buy someone else's right from them.
Isn't that essentially the CO2 emission rights on the EU level? On the corporate level instead of individual person's, but still. I'm not up-to-date on that, but as of a few years ago it din't work as intended, not at all. At that time it was considered useless and effectless.
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  #174  
Old 03.10.2019, 12:26
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Re: Climate change/Greta Thunberg [merged threads]

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My bold.

I've always thought the quota system would be a good idea BUT I would take the diametrically opposite view of preventing people buying others' quota.

Everybody gets the same quota regardless of vehicle ownership (or age even) and you can do with it what you want. Poorer people could sell their quota or part of it, others could give/sell it to friends or relatives, tree huggers could let their quota lapse and rich people could buy quota at market value.

The central government could then over time reduce the overall quota in line with their targets. As the quota comes down the marginal cost of fuel starts to reflect its true cost.

This is a simple and fair system. Everyone has the right to pollute a bit and if you want to pollute more then you have to buy someone else's right from them.
Now lets assume this is a great idea and we move on with it.

How are we going to implement it, what prevents me from buying across the border, how do we treat businesses, how do we prevent private usage on "business fuel", how do we treat people who really need the car for work due to times and location, how do we register the usage, how do we hand out and register the rights? Does everybody get a quota or only owners? or people with a license? how about rental cars? What about driving outside the country?

Actually the more you think about it, the bigger disaster such a plan is.
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  #175  
Old 03.10.2019, 12:34
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Re: The threat of Climate Change is bigger than our angst with Greta Thunberg

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Please define "money-making scam" [or scheme] in this context. How can fuel taxation be a scam when it's legal? Legal in the sense of, based on a certain law that mandates its implementation.

The way I see it, "money-making scheme" can only apply to private undertakings as taxes, whichever way they're collected or wherever they're sourced from, are ultimately spent for some legitimate purpose for the public good.

I responded to Baboon's post about money making, not about it being a scam.


The problem exists also with kerosin, which is not taxed. If other types of oil are taxed, you could see that as a subsidy.


Another problem is that emissions are not taxed and treated equally. For example, cars, planes, boats, gasoline lawnmowers, scooters have totally different emission regulations.
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  #176  
Old 03.10.2019, 13:01
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Re: The threat of Climate Change is bigger than our angst with Greta Thunberg

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I responded to Baboon's post about money making, not about it being a scam.
True, but baboon replied to it, and you quoted his full post, which indicates what (part, if partially quoted) you reply to.

I don't understand what your point is. Clearly a subsidy is not even remotely comparable to a money-making scheme.
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  #177  
Old 03.10.2019, 14:05
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Re: Climate change/Greta Thunberg [merged threads]

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Isn't that essentially the CO2 emission rights on the EU level? On the corporate level instead of individual person's, but still. I'm not up-to-date on that, but as of a few years ago it din't work as intended, not at all. At that time it was considered useless and effectless.
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Now lets assume this is a great idea and we move on with it.

How are we going to implement it, what prevents me from buying across the border, how do we treat businesses, how do we prevent private usage on "business fuel", how do we treat people who really need the car for work due to times and location, how do we register the usage, how do we hand out and register the rights? Does everybody get a quota or only owners? or people with a license? how about rental cars? What about driving outside the country?

Actually the more you think about it, the bigger disaster such a plan is.
One thing I should have made clear is that when I say quota, I mean the right to buy. You'd still have to pay for the fuel.

Urs Max: I think you're right. It's on a personal level, but there's no grandfathering. Everyone, regardless of current fuel use, would get an equal share of quota.

EdwinNL: I'm under no illusion that this would take some creative thought to implement.

//what prevents me from buying across the border// - There would have to be co-operation between bordering countries, but if every country introduced such a scheme it wouldn't really matter as you'd need quota from the other country.

//how do we treat businesses, how do we prevent private usage on "business fuel"//
Quotas would be issued to individuals. Unlike the US, I don't believe corporations are individuals so they wouldn't get any quota. Businesses would have to buy quota on the open market - how they deal with their employees using their quota is their problem.

//how do we treat people who really need the car for work due to times and location// Same as everybody else - they need more than their quota, they have to buy quota.

//how do we hand out and register the rights?// Probably based on residence - You've got a residential ID card - you get quota.

//Does everybody get a quota or only owners? or people with a license?// Everybody

//how about rental cars?// You use your quota.

//What about driving outside the country?// Again, it wouldn't really matter as you'd need quota from the other country.

I don't see much difficulty with this. Say a country uses X litres of fuel a year and has a population of P. To start with everybody gets X/P ltrs of quota. In a perfect market, the quota should be exchanged so that everybody gets the fuel they want. There wouldn't be any shortages. As the country tries to meet it's targets it would bring the quota down and the price of quota would go up.

I see having something like a credit card which allows the petrol station to deduct from your quota account. If you haven't got enough quota (or if you haven't got your card) you will seamlessly buy quota on an open exchange. If you weren't going to use your quota, you'd just go online and sell quota at the going rate and they'd credit you bank account. Businesses could get an empty card and buy quota for their employees to use for business.

This puts a price on the externalities of using fuel. At the moment, someone who rides a bike or walks to work (or works from home) has to breathe the pollution of people/trucks driving (and also gets the disbenefit that we all get from climate change) but now they can at least get paid for it.
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  #178  
Old 03.10.2019, 14:34
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Re: Climate change/Greta Thunberg [merged threads]

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One thing I should have made clear is that when I say quota, I mean the right to buy. You'd still have to pay for the fuel.
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Urs Max: I think you're right. It's on a personal level, but there's no grandfathering. Everyone, regardless of current fuel use, would get an equal share of quota.

EdwinNL: I'm under no illusion that this would take some creative thought to implement.

//what prevents me from buying across the border// - There would have to be co-operation between bordering countries, but if every country introduced such a scheme it wouldn't really matter as you'd need quota from the other country.
Nice, but not going to happen. Countries rely on income from taxes on gasoline, some more than others, let the neighbour put up his quota so we can earn more, oil producing countries have absolutely no interest in this so a black market would pop up quickly.
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//how do we treat businesses, how do we prevent private usage on "business fuel"//
Quotas would be issued to individuals. Unlike the US, I don't believe corporations are individuals so they wouldn't get any quota. Businesses would have to buy quota on the open market - how they deal with their employees using their quota is their problem.
Raising expenses for businesses means lowering export power and raising prices for customers.
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//how do we treat people who really need the car for work due to times and location// Same as everybody else - they need more than their quota, they have to buy quota.
That is simply ridiculous, so I need to bid up against my employer to be able to buy fuel to be able to get to my work..
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//how do we hand out and register the rights?// Probably based on residence - You've got a residential ID card - you get quota.
But how do we register quota used and remaining? If implemented we need a register that keeps track of sold quota's, of how much quota everybody has, that is going to be billions to implement and maintain.
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//Does everybody get a quota or only owners? or people with a license?// Everybody
Even baby's.. Oh honey we need another kid else I can't get that new job which is further away...
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//how about rental cars?// You use your quota.
Great more bookkeeping, so every rental company has to set up equipment to measure and register and pass this data on to a new governmental agency
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//What about driving outside the country?// Again, it wouldn't really matter as you'd need quota from the other country.
Wait, so if I go on holiday I would need to buy quota elsewhere? And I thought we wanted people to fly less instead of more.
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I don't see much difficulty with this. Say a country uses X litres of fuel a year and has a population of P. To start with everybody gets X/P ltrs of quota. In a perfect market, the quota should be exchanged so that everybody gets the fuel they want. There wouldn't be any shortages. As the country tries to meet it's targets it would bring the quota down and the price of quota would go up.
So all countries would have to agree on a worldwide distribution of quota rights Amerika, Russia, Iran, SA, Finland, Zimbabwe etc.. al sitting on one table where some have as interest as much quota for all as possible and the rest as interest to get more than enough quota for their own country, yeah I see how that works.
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I see having something like a credit card which allows the petrol station to deduct from your quota account. If you haven't got enough quota (or if you haven't got your card) you will seamlessly buy quota on an open exchange. If you weren't going to use your quota, you'd just go online and sell quota at the going rate and they'd credit you bank account. Businesses could get an empty card and buy quota for their employees to use for business.
If the pin machine has a problem I at least can pay cash, if your card has a problem I can't fill it up at all.
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This puts a price on the externalities of using fuel. At the moment, someone who rides a bike or walks to work (or works from home) has to breathe the pollution of people/trucks driving (and also gets the disbenefit that we all get from climate change) but now they can at least get paid for it.
Those people on a bike or those who walk get home with bags filled with materials that demanded those trucks to drive and all those other people to drive to work.
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  #179  
Old 03.10.2019, 14:42
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Re: Climate change/Greta Thunberg [merged threads]

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Raising expenses for businesses means lowering export power and raising prices for customers.
Not necessarily on exports. The concept of building fuel tax differentials into import and export tariffs is being investigated, read an article on that just a week or 2 ago.

It will drive business to be much more carbon efficient.
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  #180  
Old 03.10.2019, 14:50
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Re: The threat of Climate Change is bigger than our angst with Greta Thunberg

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Fuel taxes here ARE a money-making scam.

Tom
Is there any tax that isn't a money-making scam?
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