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25.10.2019, 12:35
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| | Re: 39 people found dead in lorry in Essex | Quote: | |  | | | Have I missed anything in the news lately? | | | | | Bulgaria, Romania, what's the difference to EFers?
Tom
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25.10.2019, 12:35
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| | Re: 39 people found dead in lorry in Essex | Quote: | |  | | | Isn’t a little unusual to contract a truck from N. Ireland to collect a trailer from a terminal to the east of London?
A Romanian registered Truck, as well.
Curiouser and curiouser ... | | | | | Bulgarian, NOT Romanian!
Tom
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25.10.2019, 12:53
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| | Re: 39 people found dead in lorry in Essex | Quote: | |  | | | Bulgaria, Romania, what's the difference to EFers?
Tom | | | | | They don't even start with the same letter lol. Anyway, it is not that important where the truck was registered and the nationality of the driver.
To me all of these seem to be the tragic end of one of the (probably many) attempts/accomplished "missions" of people smuggling ring. I might be wrong and maybe it was only a stupid driver who thought he can make a quick buck.
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25.10.2019, 12:58
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| | Re: 39 people found dead in lorry in Essex | Quote: |  | | | One of the things about these stories that always disturbs me - it was the same with that little lad whose drowned body was splashed all over the news a few years ago - is that the poor sods were invariably already in a safe country.
Now, I understand why the United Kingdom is attractive to a lot of migrants, just as I understand why Germany and Sweden are, but it still makes me sad to think that people would forego an already-established security in the hope of getting just that tiny bit more, with such awful attendant risks.
Is there a solution? I don't think there is - at least, not in a liberal, democratic nation. The kind of "hostile environment" that wingnuts talk about won't discourage people who are willing to risk death to get where they want to be, but will make the lives of everybody else unnecessarily miserable. Meanwhile open borders are incompatible with a comprehensive welfare system.
We'll probably just have to get used to hearing about dead bodies on the beaches of Sussex and in the truck stops of Essex. | | | | | Yes, it is sad. Maybe they are desperate but it probably also depends on what they're told at the outset about the journey and what to expect when they get there. "You'll be transported in containers, then sold into slavery" doesn't sound too appealing. Maybe it's more like "We'll drive you there for free and you'll get a three-bedroom house and drive a BMW". Revealed: 39 Chinese migrants found in death trap lorry had travelled 5,000 miles and may have been locked in airless, freezing trailer for DAYS
According to a friend of the driver, he'd got out to fetch paperwork inside the back door, opened it to find the frozen bodies and called an ambulance. Driver seems to live in a swish abode for a 25 year-old, but perhaps not unusual if property in NI is cheap.
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25.10.2019, 13:00
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| | Re: 39 people found dead in lorry in Essex | Quote: | |  | | | Isn’t a little unusual to contract a truck from N. Ireland to collect a trailer from a terminal to the east of London?
A Romanian registered Truck, as well.
Curiouser and curiouser ... | | | | | Not really, and seeing as the truck entered the UK 3 days before it collected the trailer, he probably had a few other pick ups to do around the country in that time.
Last edited by grumpygrapefruit; 25.10.2019 at 13:29.
Reason: for clarity
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25.10.2019, 13:28
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| | Re: 39 people found dead in lorry in Essex | Quote: | |  | | | I blame Brexit. | | | | | I know you're joking. But a pro-Brexit friend of mine commented on FB that he voted for Brexit to stop things like this. He was soon put right by a lot of other friends. (ie that this has nothing to do with the EU)
And I know this is the Daily Mail, but even for their typical readers standards, this is pretty horrendous. | The following 11 users would like to thank grumpygrapefruit for this useful post: | | 
25.10.2019, 14:38
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25.10.2019, 16:08
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| | Re: 39 people found dead in lorry in Essex | Quote: | |  | | | The driver has been (or will be) charged with attempted murder. | | | | | That sounds ridiculous, he can't possibly be charged with attempted murder. Manslaughter very likely
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25.10.2019, 16:34
| | Re: 39 people found dead in lorry in Essex | Quote: | |  | | | That sounds ridiculous, he can't possibly be charged with attempted murder. Manslaughter very likely | | | | | Yes, I doubt it would stick, given what we now know (unless there's more that we don't). But he's being held on suspicion of murder, which will justify holding him for a certain time, with a court's approval, until formal charges can be made. Being in charge of a lorry full of dead people would probably convince most magistrates to grant extra time in custody while investigations proceed.
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25.10.2019, 16:34
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| | Re: 39 people found dead in lorry in Essex
This case really looks like other cases and they all have some elements in common.
Dover case for instance | Quote: |  | | | The mass fatalities, of 56 men and two women, were 19 years ago.
The dead were Chinese nationals who had been smuggled in to Dover through Europe.
The investigation which followed led to a web of criminal connections in China, Turkey, the Netherlands and Britain organised by a Chinese snakehead gang headed by a woman operating from Rotterdam. | | | | | And | Quote: |  | | | she was sentenced to three years in jail by a Dutch court in 2003 for her part in the plot. The Dutch lorry driver, Perry Wacker, received a jail sentence of 14 years for manslaughter at Maidstone Crown Court. | | | | | Hmmmm......3 years? Only 3 years??? https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9169171.html
And this one https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-25914594
And probably some more.
Last edited by greenmount; 25.10.2019 at 16:46.
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25.10.2019, 16:42
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| | Re: 39 people found dead in lorry in Essex | Quote: |  | | | Yes, I doubt it would stick, given what we now know (unless there's more that we don't). But he's being held on suspicion of murder, which will justify holding him for a certain time, with a court's approval, until formal charges can be made. Being in charge of a lorry full of dead people would probably convince most magistrates to grant extra time in custody while investigations proceed. | | | | | Attempted murder would only stick if they were still alive.
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25.10.2019, 17:06
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25.10.2019, 19:02
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| | Re: 39 people found dead in lorry in Essex | Quote: | |  | | | Isn’t a little unusual to contract a truck from N. Ireland to collect a trailer from a terminal to the east of London?
A Romanian registered Truck, as well.
Curiouser and curiouser ... | | | | | No. How else would the trailer, which obviously did not come with it's own tractor unit on a ferry, get to it's destination?
As Edward said, it's a tough business and nobody drives around with an empty trailer or without one if it can be avoided. Truckers call in while unloading and the expeditor tells them where to load goods next.
Nothing new about this system either, breen like that already decades (there ist is again, that darn' word, ROFLMAO) ago. | Quote: | |  | | | Yes, it is sad. Maybe they are desperate but it probably also depends on what they're told at the outset about the journey and what to expect when they get there. "You'll be transported in containers, then sold into slavery" doesn't sound too appealing. Maybe it's more like "We'll drive you there for free and you'll get a three-bedroom house and drive a BMW". Revealed: 39 Chinese migrants found in death trap lorry had travelled 5,000 miles and may have been locked in airless, freezing trailer for DAYS
According to a friend of the driver, he'd got out to fetch paperwork inside the back door, opened it to find the frozen bodies and called an ambulance. Driver seems to live in a swish abode for a 25 year-old, but perhaps not unusual if property in NI is cheap. | | | | | The smugglers do not need sales tricks to get customers
Considering the Irish truck driver is still in custody and not allowed to chat away on his handy, ain't it great how these "friends" know the latest details.
The smugglers payed money back!  And so quickly too!
I wonder if those payments can't be traced? Yea, probably not
On top of everything the famiies who admitted to having payed 30K and more to have family members smuggled into the country will be prosecuted too. At least this is an offense in Switzerland for example.
__________________ It's all a matter or perspective.
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25.10.2019, 21:45
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| | Re: 39 people found dead in lorry in Essex
One more arrest in connection with this case | Quote: |  | | | She added: "A 48 year-old man from Northern Ireland was arrested at Stansted Airport earlier today on suspicion of conspiracy to traffic people and on suspicion of manslaughter.
“It follows the arrests of a 38 year-old man and a 38 year-old woman from Warrington during warrants executed in Cheshire overnight. They are currently in custody also on suspicion of conspiracy to traffic people and on suspicion of manslaughter."
An international investigation is now underway to establish how the 31 men and eight women, all believed to be Chinese nationals, were brought into the UK from the port of Zeebrugge in Belgium early on Wednesday morning.
...............
Essex Police believes the trailer travelled from Zeebrugge to the port of Purfleet. The lorry cab is thought to have entered the UK at Holyhead in north Wales on a ferry from Dublin.
Irish company Global Trailer Rentals Ltd (GTR) confirmed it owned the refrigerated part of the lorry and a spokesman said the company was “shellshocked” and “gutted” by the news.
The firm said the trailer had been leased on October 15 from its rentals yard in Co Monaghan, in the Republic of Ireland, at a rate of 275 euro (£237) a week.
It said it provided police with information about the person and company that leased the trailer, as well as offering to make tracking data available.
Three addresses have been searched in Northern Ireland as part of the probe, while warrants were also carried out in Cheshire.
China has called for joint efforts to counter human smuggling, while vigils have been held in London and Belfast to pay tribute to the victims.
| | | | | https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9170901.html
Heads are rolling, but am not sure if they got the top of the ring.
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25.10.2019, 22:16
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| | Re: 39 people found dead in lorry in Essex | Quote: | |  | | | I know you're joking. But a pro-Brexit friend of mine commented on FB that he voted for Brexit to stop things like this. He was soon put right by a lot of other friends. (ie that this has nothing to do with the EU) | | | | | I am almost 100% sure that some people, regardless of the facts, will continue to have their own reality of what has happened. Of course it happened because of the EU. Recent thread was pretty....illuminating. Even if he was put right by other friends.....nah, he won't change his views.
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25.10.2019, 22:50
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| | Re: 39 people found dead in lorry in Essex | Quote: | |  | | | Yes, it is sad. Maybe they are desperate but it probably also depends on what they're told at the outset about the journey and what to expect when they get there. "You'll be transported in containers, then sold into slavery" doesn't sound too appealing. Maybe it's more like "We'll drive you there for free and you'll get a three-bedroom house and drive a BMW". Revealed: 39 Chinese migrants found in death trap lorry had travelled 5,000 miles and may have been locked in airless, freezing trailer for DAYS
According to a friend of the driver, he'd got out to fetch paperwork inside the back door, opened it to find the frozen bodies and called an ambulance. Driver seems to live in a swish abode for a 25 year-old, but perhaps not unusual if property in NI is cheap. | | | | | Im wondering if this is really the whole story.
I don’t know much about trucking but is it really normal to store paperwork inside the back door of a refrigerated lorry?
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25.10.2019, 23:12
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| | Re: 39 people found dead in lorry in Essex | Quote: | |  | | | Im wondering if this is really the whole story.
I don’t know much about trucking but is it really normal to store paperwork inside the back door of a refrigerated lorry? | | | | | If the trailer is left parked up to be collected by the truck I suppose the paperwork has to be stored somewhere. There is probably a pocket for it on the inside of the back door.
I don’t think they’d just leave it taped to the outside.
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25.10.2019, 23:24
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| | Re: 39 people found dead in lorry in Essex | Quote: | |  | | | Attempted murder would only stick if they were still alive. | | | | | Not true. | Quote: |  | | | Attempted Murder - Causation:
The prosecution must show a causal link between the act/omission and the death. The act or omission must be a substantial cause of death, but it need not be the sole or main cause of death. | | | | | https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidanc...d-manslaughter
With speculation that at least one of the victims was still alive upon arrival in the UK, the fact that the driver transported the container further can be deemed to be a contributing factor in their death. The charge also gives the CPS wiggle room for a plea bargain based upon the suspect offering information. All of that is assuming that the driver was aware of his cargo.
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25.10.2019, 23:36
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| | Re: 39 people found dead in lorry in Essex
Bozo Johnson loved this. It got the „B“ word off the news cycles for all of five minutes. And it gives the gammons ammunition to harp on about Freedom-Of-Movement and how leaving the EU on 31st October will prevent all this.
As if the gammons care a fig about brown-skinned people and their fate.
Loz is quiet these days.
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25.10.2019, 23:40
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| | Re: 39 people found dead in lorry in Essex | Quote: | |  | | | Not true. https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidanc...d-manslaughter
With speculation that at least one of the victims was still alive upon arrival in the UK, the fact that the driver transported the container further can be deemed to be a contributing factor in their death. The charge also gives the CPS wiggle room for a plea bargain based upon the suspect offering information. All of that is assuming that the driver was aware of his cargo. | | | | | You quoted from your link selectively and put it together newly.
The chapter is about murder: intent and attempted. The "Causation" paragraph is for both kinds.
Attempted murder is - in it's wording - an attempt = victim is still alive.
Intent is victim is dead and you did it on purpous/meant it to be dead.
In this specific case, even attempted murder is wrong imo, as the smugglers don't want to kill their clients (even in their eyes it means they have to return the money as the story tells). In Switzerland this would be "Totschlag" (manslaughter) or even more likely "Körperverletzung mit Todesfolge" (grievous bodily harm resulting in death).
__________________ It's all a matter or perspective.
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