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  #61  
Old 18.11.2019, 18:19
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Re: Hong Kong Protests turn Medieval as Uni resembles Kiev Maidan confrontations

No one says the students actions are justified but it is deafening when entire parts of some sectors and civil society denounce police actions. Yes the police are following the law in trying to bring back control, it when the populace is asking them to do things differently than their government overlords, in most places, they take heed and pull back/apologize/submit to an independent investigation.

At the end of the day the police are incompetent. They had the intent of arresting students. They backed off due to arrows and fire. Then they started a siege. Now the students are escaping on motorcycles driven in from across the city to rescue students propelling down a bridge. This boggles the mind.

I would not be against a quick “violent” conclusion to this sad episode. People would have accepted injuries amongst the police and students. Now it’s just a slow moving joke.
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Old 18.11.2019, 22:49
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Re: Hong Kong Protests turn Medieval as Uni resembles Kiev Maidan confrontations

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I know its an unpopular opinion but HK is in no way like Tiananmen. The students in Beijing were pacifists marching peacefully. Nobody was ever hurt by them, nothing was damaged. The local population was happy with them and supplied them with food (at a time where food wasnt as abundant as today). The Chinese leaders responded by moving in army units from other provinces who would simply shoot them up.

In HK do protesters throw fire bombs on police vehicles and shot a cop in the leg with a hunting bow. Just look at the news broadcasts what the protests look like now: What exactly should a police force whose job it is to protect the city from getting burned down do? And even when they are assaulted with deadly weapons do they so far respond with water cannon and rubber bullets. Pretty clearly: they dont want to shoot the kids.


tonight the police drove three vans towards protestors:
https://www.facebook.com/769109727/p...8005417004728/

From August 21st to September 30th, the Women's Sexual Violence Association in hong kong launched a “Sexual Violence Experience Survey”. Among 53 protestors who responded, 32 of them reported sexual harrassment from law enforcement officers.

Not to mention the increased unusual suicide cases (naked female corpse in the ocean, jumping off height corpse with beaten up injuries)of protestors found since the protest.

Enough said, if nobody did anything wrong then they shouldn't be afraid to get investigated. Independent investigation is the only righteousness way to end this. There's no need for us to say stuff like "I think the police are doing it right", "I think the protestors are violent", there is a reason for "Rule of law" to exist.
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Old 19.11.2019, 00:04
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Re: Hong Kong Protests turn Medieval as Uni resembles Kiev Maidan confrontations

As long as the riots go on, I doubt there could be any independent survey of the situations. And since the rioters know just too well they're facing long prison terms once they're catched they're demanding silly amnesia (while at the same time still demanding the police is getting punished )

Anyway, the hard working people* of Hong Kong had more than enough of those teenagers destroying their home, their future, their economy. And even most of the earlier (peaceful) demonstrators have turned away from those rioters who are on the brink of what could be called domestic terrorism.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/26/a...hnk/index.html

*Also some first-hand reports I've gotten from people living & working in HK.

A huge majority of Hong Kongers want peace restored. The rioters do know that, their support is dwindling and so they're using more and more extreme methods to "keep going". The peaceful demonstrations against a needed law that would only have needed slight modification ("Any deportion should be approved by a local HK judge/commity first") certainly had some points, but the current state is helping no one but those with an agenda to weaken HK and it's special SAR status within the People's Republic of China.

@Spagetti: Do you have a neutral website/article that confirms such accusations? What you posted doesn't look very neutral - or even slightly neutral - at all.
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Old 19.11.2019, 00:24
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Re: Hong Kong Protests turn Medieval as Uni resembles Kiev Maidan confrontations

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As long as the riots go on, I doubt there could be any independent survey of the situations. And since the rioters know just too well they're facing long prison terms once they're catched they're demanding silly amnesia (while at the same time still demanding the police is getting punished )

Anyway, the hard working people* of Hong Kong had more than enough of those teenagers destroying their home, their future, their economy. And even most of the earlier (peaceful) demonstrators have turned away from those rioters who are on the brink of what could be called domestic terrorism.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/26/a...hnk/index.html

*Also some first-hand reports I've gotten from people living & working in HK.

A huge majority of Hong Kongers want peace restored. The rioters do know that, their support is dwindling and so they're using more and more extreme methods to "keep going". The peaceful demonstrations against a needed law that would only have needed slight modification ("Any deportion should be approved by a local HK judge/commity first") certainly had some points, but the current state is helping no one but those with an agenda to weaken HK and it's special SAR status within the People's Republic of China.

Most of my friends and family (in and out of HK) just want the violence to end. it's true what you said, in the beginning during the peaceful marches, there was a huge turnout and support. But after 5 months, underground and airport disruptions, now school closures? Yes the tide is turning in support.
I don't want the whole world to think HK police are tyrants, i'd like to interject with my own experience growing up in HK. We all looked up to HKPF. I had a few friends whose dad's were police officers.
Now the HKPF have been linked to triads, beatings, excessive violence, cover ups. I am not the press nor do I have all the stats - I am sure there were some incidents of police injustices during these past 5months but we need a separate inquiry into this. How some (some i specify) of the students are reacting to this - is with complete retaliation and violence towards all police.
You only need to look at the news every day, HK looks like the hunger games,the students are using medieval weaponry , ripping up brick pavements...this to me is not the way to make your voice heard. This is completely different to the umbrella movement back in 2014. (i know there were different demands with the two movements) but still the evolution of HK protests is staggering:



the Occupy movement 2014

"The original plan floated by the three founders was called “Occupy Central With Love and Peace”, with the organisers repeatedly emphasising the importance for the civil disobedience movement to remain non-violent and peaceful in order to gain the moral power."


and now today :


"Tactics in 2019
In 2019, protesters have changed their strategy completely. They have given up on defending occupation zones and are now adopting guerilla tactics and cat-and-mouse games with police, pointing out that this was a way to drain the energy and resources of the force. The battlefields have also spread all over the city with clashes taking place in local neighbourhoods. So far, rounds of tear gas have been fired in 14 of the 18 districts in Hong Kong.
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Old 19.11.2019, 00:31
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Re: Hong Kong Protests turn Medieval as Uni resembles Kiev Maidan confrontations

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At the end of the day the police are incompetent. They had the intent of arresting students. They backed off due to arrows and fire. Then they started a siege. Now the students are escaping on motorcycles driven in from across the city to rescue students propelling down a bridge. This boggles the mind.
So the police are incompetent because they've backed off. Had they not done that, no doubt they'd be using excessive force (according to you). So whatever they do they're either incompetent or abusing their power.

Heads you win, tail they lose.
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  #66  
Old 19.11.2019, 00:50
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Re: Hong Kong Protests turn Medieval as Uni resembles Kiev Maidan confrontations

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I agree. I think there are cultural factors which amplify the effect for HK, but in the end, I think it is the same thread which has lead to: yellow jackets, trump, brexit, etc.

Middle classes are being squeezed, people feel that QoL and opportunities available to previous generations are not available to them. Personally, I think this can all be traced back to the current extraordinary loose monetary policy around the world which has resulted in greater division between the rich and the 'poor'. I think the linked exchange rate system plus the low US rates is one of the more exteme cases and has had the HK economy running too hot for far too long.
And it's just getting worse:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkel...etting-richer/

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Old 19.11.2019, 01:44
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Re: Hong Kong Protests turn Medieval as Uni resembles Kiev Maidan confrontations

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I don't want the whole world to think HK police are tyrants, i'd like to interject with my own experience growing up in HK. We all looked up to HKPF. I had a few friends whose dad's were police officers.
Now the HKPF have been linked to triads, beatings, excessive violence, cover ups. I am not the press nor do I have all the stats - I am sure there were some incidents of police injustices during these past 5months but we need a separate inquiry into this. How some (some i specify) of the students are reacting to this - is with complete retaliation and violence towards all police.
You only need to look at the news every day, HK looks like the hunger games,the students are using medieval weaponry , ripping up brick pavements...[/LEFT]
It must be pretty difficult to train for what is going on in HK. It's like what Donald Rumsfeld said about going to war with the army you have and not what you want....they have to rely on their training, values, and better judgement.

That said, this is an ongoing power struggle and both sides are obviously guilty of heinous acts. Police do get away with it more because it takes a lot more effort to arrest them. And their fellow officers these days might not report the offenses they witness since they'll be serving with these guys out in the streets by the next night....so it's war. At least for now.

HK leaders should have never allowed Carrie Lam to stay on after she acquiesced. It was clear she was not on the people's side but more of a puppet. Now everything is running through Beijing and quite frankly it does seem that they don't plan to lose much face in this. It has gone too far.

However, the protestors of HK really are representing what people all over the world feel these days towards the way things are governed. Leadership all over the world is misleading and not really working on addressing or correcting its problems. Most at fault for poor leadership is the US, but humanity collectively is to blame. But I do wonder if the US signed the Kyoto Protocol and Bush Jr wasn't handed the presidency.

So HK burns, the world burns, and these protests will become more prevalent across nations when populaces realize in larger numbers that their local politicians in democracies really aren't work for them after all...it does make one wonder how long it will take to occur in the US. I do agree - it should be peaceful protests across the nation/world to show solidarity in an uprising. Like what we saw recently in Switzerland by the Kurdish community against Erdogan.

However, it would be nice to see all the sides in HK come together to mediate a new way forward. A model for the rest of us.

I'm not convinced though that the people who hold the power are really willing to change things...since this sort of tension creates more power or at least the perception that the other side should stay weaker.

Let's hope these sides think a bit deeper about what is best for themselves and others in the long run.
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  #68  
Old 19.11.2019, 11:16
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Re: Hong Kong Protests turn Medieval as Uni resembles Kiev Maidan confrontations

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As long as the riots go on, I doubt there could be any independent survey of the situations. And since the rioters know just too well they're facing long prison terms once they're catched they're demanding silly amnesia (while at the same time still demanding the police is getting punished )

Anyway, the hard working people* of Hong Kong had more than enough of those teenagers destroying their home, their future, their economy. And even most of the earlier (peaceful) demonstrators have turned away from those rioters who are on the brink of what could be called domestic terrorism.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/26/a...hnk/index.html

*Also some first-hand reports I've gotten from people living & working in HK.

A huge majority of Hong Kongers want peace restored. The rioters do know that, their support is dwindling and so they're using more and more extreme methods to "keep going". The peaceful demonstrations against a needed law that would only have needed slight modification ("Any deportion should be approved by a local HK judge/commity first") certainly had some points, but the current state is helping no one but those with an agenda to weaken HK and it's special SAR status within the People's Republic of China.

@Spagetti: Do you have a neutral website/article that confirms such accusations? What you posted doesn't look very neutral - or even slightly neutral - at all.
I do not know what is neutral (since all media has a standpoint) to you but please check out the follows:

https://na.cx/i/NYv2Ooi.jpg
a declaration from the holy cross church (in chinese tho) , reporting what they've seen from their security cameras, a police officer during the arrest of a protestor, put a hammer into his backpack.

The other police brutality videos are filmed by citizens and independent media, so I don't know what's neutral to you I just look at all of them with a grain of salt.

For the sexual harrassment survey please visit the official website of the Association Concerning Sexual Violence Against Women.
https://rainlily.org.hk/eng/home

Also some first-hand reports I've gotten from people living & working in HK.**
I knew a lot of protestors they're medical and law students who's guarenteed to have a bright promising future. Not like what you mentioned they're not jealous of their previous generation, they as well worked really really hard but they think it's important to fight for democracy and human rights. A lot of workers, as well those in central, hedge fund managers, reputable scholars, shop owners they also agreed that police brutality has to be handled by independent investigation, they do not agree with how the government is handling the situation. Of course they want the protest to stop and be peaceful again, everyone wants it, but it has to be in the right way, they know that even if the protest is over by brutal force, if the problems are not addressed there will be another and another protest. Especially some shop owners who are directly affected, they agreed that we have to get through these chaotic times together, and fight for a better tomorrow. There are plenty of interviews, in cantonese tho, you can google.

quote from an article from financial times:
https://www.instagram.com/p/B436NhXADHt/
"“I’ve spoken to several expats and I think from their perspectives that things only get serious when their kids can’t go to school and they can’t get their lattes and go to yoga.” said one foreign executive

It's a protest, it causes financial damage, we all know that, but most of us know why what we are fighting for.


Edit:

Hong Kong public opinion research institute did a survey:
https://www.pori.hk/wehongkonger-results-page

results(you can read the whole thing in english):
https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...NG_v1_pori.pdf

Q4: How much do you support or oppose the setting up of a statutory independent commission of inquiry by the government to look into the use of force by the Police Force in the anti-extradition law incidents?

80% support.

Last edited by spaghetti; 19.11.2019 at 13:08.
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  #69  
Old 20.11.2019, 02:22
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Re: Hong Kong Protests turn Medieval as Uni resembles Kiev Maidan confrontations

https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-...bill/1838/text


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Old 20.11.2019, 09:14
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Re: Hong Kong Protests turn Medieval as Uni resembles Kiev Maidan confrontations

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So the police are incompetent because they've backed off. Had they not done that, no doubt they'd be using excessive force (according to you). So whatever they do they're either incompetent or abusing their power.

Heads you win, tail they lose.

No actually I would have accepted some deaths and injuries to get the situation under control. I am more against incompetence (on both sides)
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Old 20.11.2019, 09:17
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Re: Hong Kong Protests turn Medieval as Uni resembles Kiev Maidan confrontations

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HK leaders should have never allowed Carrie Lam to stay on after she acquiesced. It was clear she was not on the people's side but more of a puppet. Now everything is running through Beijing and quite frankly it does seem that they don't plan to lose much face in this. It has gone too far.

Carrie Lam has no choice. She cannot quit as she would like as that would show that China made a wrong decision (they cannot admit that as that is a loss of face). She cannot get fired (same argument as before). The other secretaries are also pretty much chosen based on China's wishes so even ones that were responsible for the execution of the original law and the current control of the city cannot be held fully accountable as it would all result in a loss of face.


Another argument is that there is no consensus or guarantee of another pro-China bureaucrat that can handle the situation after Carrie is gone.
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Old 20.11.2019, 10:40
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Re: Hong Kong Protests turn Medieval as Uni resembles Kiev Maidan confrontations

Don’t the US have some bigger internal issues? Like the orange ape?

Typical American arrogance. Trying to meddle in other countries domestic issues like usual..

Hope China will start to inquire about the more than 1000 people killed by US police every year..
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Old 20.11.2019, 12:56
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Re: Hong Kong Protests turn Medieval as Uni resembles Kiev Maidan confrontations

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Don’t the US have some bigger internal issues? Like the orange ape?

Typical American arrogance. Trying to meddle in other countries domestic issues like usual..

Hope China will start to inquire about the more than 1000 people killed by US police every year..
The act is to ban foreigners deemed guilty of human rights abuses from entering the country and freeze their assets. It's an important global development in human right, so the abusers who are otherwise protected by their own government will bear the consequences with what they did.

Domestic violence for instance, when you see somebody being beaten up by their other halves of course you "meddle", especially when the victims are seeking for help.

It's not just US, consider the Magnitsky Act, it has subsequently been enacted in other countries such as Estonia, UK, Lithuania, Latvia and some others under legislation.
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Old 20.11.2019, 13:08
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Re: Hong Kong Protests turn Medieval as Uni resembles Kiev Maidan confrontations

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The act is to ban foreigners deemed guilty of human rights abuses from entering the country and freeze their assets. It's an important global development in human right, so the abusers who are otherwise protected by their own government will bear the consequences with what they did.

Domestic violence for instance, when you see somebody being beaten up by their other halves of course you "meddle", especially when the victims are seeking for help.

It's not just US, consider the Magnitsky Act, it has subsequently been enacted in other countries such as Estonia, UK, Lithuania, Latvia and some others under legislation.

spaghetti, what did you make of carrie lam's press conference yesterday? all i could recall was she kept emphasised the 18 year age factor. I feel bad for those over 18 then (i suspect many of the instigators are over 18 at Poly U?) Also related to this, what do you make of all the student arrests today at secondary schools? (ie.under 18 yr olds...)
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Old 20.11.2019, 13:32
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Re: Hong Kong Protests turn Medieval as Uni resembles Kiev Maidan confrontations

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spaghetti, what did you make of carrie lam's press conference yesterday? all i could recall was she kept emphasised the 18 year age factor. I feel bad for those over 18 then (i suspect many of the instigators are over 18 at Poly U?) Also related to this, what do you make of all the student arrests today at secondary schools? (ie.under 18 yr olds...)
the conference:
my guess is she tried playing the sympathy card, but her standpoint is clear, she said she doesn't want to escalate the "heat" by visiting polyU to understand the situation but during that time she went visiting the police officer shot by bow...

according to the news, 300 of them are under 18 and around 500-600 above. Those under 18 were allowed to go home but with their pictures taken and info registered, no guarentee if the police would take further actions.

student arrests:
Not sure about the arrest but since school resumed a lot of school students wearing school uniforms were stopped and interrogated on their way to school out of no reason.
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Old 20.11.2019, 13:38
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Re: Hong Kong Protests turn Medieval as Uni resembles Kiev Maidan confrontations

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The act is to ban foreigners deemed guilty of human rights abuses from entering the country and freeze their assets. It's an important global development in human right, so the abusers who are otherwise protected by their own government will bear the consequences with what they did.

Domestic violence for instance, when you see somebody being beaten up by their other halves of course you "meddle", especially when the victims are seeking for help.

It's not just US, consider the Magnitsky Act, it has subsequently been enacted in other countries such as Estonia, UK, Lithuania, Latvia and some others under legislation.
In all honesty: I would love to share your view that the US is all about freedom and human rights. But I must say its pretty hard to ignore how selective the US is at choosing who is bad or good... if the Chinese are bad - in the middle of an economic confrontation - but for example the Saudis very literally get away with murder... well, I simply dont buy it.

I fully agree with you that the international community should "meddle" a lot more when things are going wrong and call countries and their leaders out in much clearer ways than it is the case today. But that cannot be some colonial one way street, but needs to include criticism of the first world. And suddenly everyone gets quiet.
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Old 22.11.2019, 10:12
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Re: Hong Kong Protests turn Medieval as Uni resembles Kiev Maidan confrontations

The world is watching.

From the Lancet, a peer-reviewed medical journal:

"The actions of the Hong Kong Police Force have fallen far below accepted international norms for the handling of volunteer emergency medical providers. The arrest of these personnel is almost unheard of in civilised countries and is incompatible with the compact of humanitarianism."

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...909-5/fulltext
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Old 22.11.2019, 11:40
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Re: Hong Kong Protests turn Medieval as Uni resembles Kiev Maidan confrontations

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The world is watching.

From the Lancet, a peer-reviewed medical journal:

"The actions of the Hong Kong Police Force have fallen far below accepted international norms for the handling of volunteer emergency medical providers. The arrest of these personnel is almost unheard of in civilised countries and is incompatible with the compact of humanitarianism."

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...909-5/fulltext

The author of that article, Darren Mann with the claimed affiliation "Independent medical practitioner, Hong Kong", does not shy away from mixing medicine and politics.

I'm not saying it is the case here, but if these so called emergency volunteers allow themselves to be manipulated and infiltrated by external organisations whose real objective is to fan the flames of any dispute, then "emergency volunteers" in general come under suspicion (White Helmets etc.) justified or not.

Incidentally, arrests of people serving food to the homeless, which I suppose could be regarded as emergency support, is definitely not unheard of in the West.
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Old 22.11.2019, 13:24
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Re: Hong Kong Protests turn Medieval as Uni resembles Kiev Maidan confrontations

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The world is watching.

From the Lancet, a peer-reviewed medical journal:

"The actions of the Hong Kong Police Force have fallen far below accepted international norms for the handling of volunteer emergency medical providers. The arrest of these personnel is almost unheard of in civilised countries and is incompatible with the compact of humanitarianism."

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...909-5/fulltext
Spaghetti, I think the video below speak louder than any words.
No one like to live under this kind of control.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsw625SR9EY

I'm from Vietnam , and we support Hongkong Protesters. They are so brave to stand up , & fight for their rights. In VN, the gov always stated" our gov belongs to the people, run by the people, and work for the people."
Any Gov can't meet the need, the desire of their own people, then revolution is a must. Probably, we need to invite these HK policeman and Carrie Lam to VN to learn that
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Old 22.11.2019, 14:01
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Re: Hong Kong Protests turn Medieval as Uni resembles Kiev Maidan confrontations

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The author of that article, Darren Mann with the claimed affiliation "Independent medical practitioner, Hong Kong", does not shy away from mixing medicine and politics.

I'm not saying it is the case here, but if these so called emergency volunteers allow themselves to be manipulated and infiltrated by external organisations whose real objective is to fan the flames of any dispute, then "emergency volunteers" in general come under suspicion (White Helmets etc.) justified or not.

Incidentally, arrests of people serving food to the homeless, which I suppose could be regarded as emergency support, is definitely not unheard of in the West.
Yeah, incidentally arresting medical volunteers is still wrong.
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