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  #201  
Old 06.04.2020, 15:15
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Re: Slammer´s rambling musings

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Loads of people dislike the EU and I believe them, especially now. Loads of people say how much they dislike the US and I have a hard time believing it. It just has been trendy to bitch about it. I think the position of the US now, at the beginning of an unexpected health crisis, is stronger than it would be under a different leadership. The fact that US is not as invested in the world and focusing on their home affairs is something that Trump did, imho. It did not happen by itself.
Yeah you're right, it's trendy to bitch about the US (Trump or not, was the same under Bush and Obama, though a bit less under the latter). And as twisted as it is, I agree with your other comment.

I have been highly critical of the EU from the beginning and have always believed it was a thinly-veiled attempt to counter the US' hegemonic power in post-CW times. It never stood the chance to be an actual military counterweight though. Economically it was sort of ok as long as things were going well, not so much once they started going wrong (2008). Politically, it was way too divided to begin with to work as a real union.

I'm not particularly optimistic that it will survive this, depends on how many authoritarian-inspired regimes pop up particularly in (though not limited to) the Eastern European countries, and how many countries will go formally bankrupt in the meantime.

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I am worried more about complacency, folks hating their own old, traditional enemies, etc. is making them too slow to check how the power and access to help is shifting fast.
I'm with you on this one. But I've made no secret of the fact that I've been massively concerned about political implications of all this.
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  #202  
Old 06.04.2020, 15:37
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Re: Slammer´s rambling musings

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Yeah you're right, it's trendy to bitch about the US (Trump or not, was the same under Bush and Obama, though a bit less under the latter). And as twisted as it is, I agree with your other comment.

I have been highly critical of the EU from the beginning and have always believed it was a thinly-veiled attempt to counter the US' hegemonic power in post-CW times. It never stood the chance to be an actual military counterweight though. Economically it was sort of ok as long as things were going well, not so much once they started going wrong (2008). Politically, it was way too divided to begin with to work as a real union.

I'm not particularly optimistic that it will survive this, depends on how many authoritarian-inspired regimes pop up particularly in (though not limited to) the Eastern European countries, and how many countries will go formally bankrupt in the meantime.

I'm with you on this one. But I've made no secret of the fact that I've been massively concerned about political implications of all this.
It is the 1st thought I had when I saw Trump's tan. He kept even smart people here quite busy on hundreds of pages getting frustrated about his mental health. He just makes it way too easy for even reasonable people to get distracted.

Now, everyone I know is trying to figure out how to decorate their balcony, standing on their heads filming themselves and quickly sending it to the evening news and getting busy mass mailing whatsapp buddies with ridiculous Corona memes. Like....yeah. It is not a force majeure, there is an accountability that comes with it. Earthquake or a tsunami is.

I think EE will not cave in some special dictatorship, maybe only to resist to outside push. I would worry about us more, we will not even notice our diminishing control over our own data and identity.
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  #203  
Old 06.04.2020, 15:44
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Re: Slammer´s rambling musings

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I have been highly critical of the EU from the beginning and have always believed it was a thinly-veiled attempt to counter the US' hegemonic power in post-CW times. It never stood the chance to be an actual military counterweight though. Economically it was sort of ok as long as things were going well, not so much once they started going wrong (2008). Politically, it was way too divided to begin with to work as a real union.

I'm not particularly optimistic that it will survive this, depends on how many authoritarian-inspired regimes pop up particularly in (though not limited to) the Eastern European countries, and how many countries will go formally bankrupt in the meantime.

.
I hope it will survive because the alternative is much worse. I hope we won't see the red army rescuing us from pandemic. I know, eyebrows raised at the thought and all that, but you have to hear a lot of stories as a kid to believe it's a real possibility, so excuse me if I bother you with my typical Eastern European concerns. Also, still believing that EU will survive and be stronger, kind of can't help being optimistic against all odds.

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  #204  
Old 06.04.2020, 15:56
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Re: Slammer´s rambling musings

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I hope it will survive because the alternative is much worse. I hope we won't see the red army rescuing us from the global pandemic. I know, eyebrows raised at the thought and all that, but you have to hear a lot of stories as a kid to believe it's a real possibility, so excuse me if I bother you with my typical Eastern European concerns. Also, still believing that EU will survive and be stronger, kind of can't help being optimistic against all odds.
No eyebrows raised here. I'm not Eastern European and share your concerns and yes, it's indeed a real possibility. I've made both measured, objective and sarcastic comments about this very concern in the forum a few times over the last few days.

If the EU survives, then probably just barely. That it'd be stronger I can't see happening.
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  #205  
Old 06.04.2020, 16:00
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Re: Slammer´s rambling musings

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Nonsense, the greatest indirect intangible asset the U.S. holds over any other nation is its resilience. No other country in the world displays it at such level. Take a look at NYC after 911 for instance.
They interviewed this redneck lady with about half a tooth left, right after a tornado blasted through what was formerly her house. The reporter asked her, what she's going to do now. And she answered in the thickest possible Southern accent (I mean, it almost sounded Australian)..."Heoow, we gon' rebiill dis sombish" (translation from phonetics: Yes Sir, I'm glad you asked that question. We have unanimously decided, to combine our efforts and rebuild the structural integrity of our former humble abode). That's 'Merica IMO.
That's the typical US-centric nonsense where nothing that happens elsewhere matters. 9/11 is like a flyspeck on the wall in the grander scheme of things, 4k dead is barely worth noting. In Iraq alone the US is said to have killed 1 million or more.

Rebuilding is what humans do, it's part of the condition. It's what the Germans did afterWW2, and the North Koreans after the US genocide killed 15-25% of the population during the war (according to General McArthur). It's what the people in Serbia, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc did and are doing after the US bombed their country to pieces. THAT's resilience. Syriah, Yemen, and probably many more will follow in their footsteps.

The US as a nation are just a bunch of egocentric entitled ignoramuses who care about nothing but themselves.
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  #206  
Old 06.04.2020, 16:04
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Re: Slammer´s rambling musings

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If the EU survives, then probably just barely. That it'd be stronger I can't see happening.
The EU is showing that it has no relevance at all:
- It doesn't take leadership. in fact, it seems to be invisible
- Every EU member seems to have its own approach, not aligned with others
- Freedom of movement has stopped
- No clear financial support structure
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  #207  
Old 06.04.2020, 16:15
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Re: Slammer´s rambling musings

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That's the typical US-centric nonsense where nothing that happens elsewhere matters. 9/11 is like a flyspeck on the wall in the grander scheme of things, 4k dead is barely worth noting. In Iraq alone the US is said to have killed 1 million or more.

Rebuilding is what humans do, it's part of the condition. It's what the Germans did afterWW2, and the North Koreans after the US genocide killed 15-25% of the population during the war (according to General McArthur). It's what the people in Serbia, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc did and are doing after the US bombed their country to pieces. THAT's resilience. Syriah, Yemen, and probably many more will follow in their footsteps.

The US as a nation are just a bunch of egocentric entitled ignoramuses who care about nothing but themselves.
Because Serbia, Iraq, Afghanistan and North Korea were such splendid pillars of civilization. Terrific, come on down to Pyongyang and enjoy yourself at one of our marvelous resorts. Take a load off.
Get the outta here with that nonsense! If it weren't for the U.S., we'd all be eating canned Borscht from some factory in Vladivostok and enjoy the beauty of 2 channel state television. Your attitude is pretty narrow minded considering, that the U.S. spent roughly 18 billion Dollar in order to rebuild Europe after WW2, all the while, your country remained on the sideline, dancing to the fiddle of pretty much anybody who'd deposit money at a Swiss bank.
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Old 06.04.2020, 16:19
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Re: Slammer´s rambling musings

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The EU is showing that it has no relevance at all:
- It doesn't take leadership. in fact, it seems to be invisible
- Every EU member seems to have its own approach, not aligned with others
- Freedom of movement has stopped
- No clear financial support structure
Very accurate, yes. So in the best case it's irrelevant, in the worst case it'll fall apart entirely.

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That's the typical US-centric nonsense where nothing that happens elsewhere matters. 9/11 is like a flyspeck on the wall in the grander scheme of things, 4k dead is barely worth noting. In Iraq alone the US is said to have killed 1 million or more.
I disagree. 9/11 was a (to the majority) massive shock, an unexpected and very real threat of war to the world, especially the Western one, and not just to the US. That comparably few people died was not the issue.

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Get the outta here with that nonsense! If it weren't for the U.S., we'd all be eating canned Borscht from some factory in Vladivostok and enjoy the beauty of 2 channel state television. Your attitude is pretty narrow minded considering, that the U.S. spent roughly 18 billion Dollar in order to rebuild Europe after WW2, all the while, your country remained on the sideline, dancing to the fiddle of pretty much anybody who'd deposit money at a Swiss bank.
While Swiss born and bred, I'm with you on this. The US' role may have changed in the last 15, 20 years or so, but it was significant before that and Europe wouldn't exist in its current form if it hadn't been for the US. No we don't need to forever be at their every mercy, however it's also recommendable to not forget entirely.
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Old 06.04.2020, 16:20
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Re: Slammer´s rambling musings

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Loads of people dislike the EU and I believe them, especially now. Loads of people say how much they dislike the US and I have a hard time believing it. It just has been trendy to bitch about it. I think the position of the US now, at the beginning of an unexpected health crisis, is stronger than it would be under a different leadership. The fact that US is not as invested in the world and focusing on their home affairs is something that Trump did, imho. It did not happen by itself.
Honestly, I cannot see how anyone can think the US is in a stronger position. If you talk to people in health care right now, it‘s an absolute shit show. Months of ignoring advice, lying and not making needed supplies and protection available, plus letting states fight each other for vents. It‘s absolute madness.

They‘ll get through it, alright but the cost is going to be high.

The people holding it together are healthcare providers, scientists and state governments.

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  #210  
Old 06.04.2020, 16:21
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Re: Slammer´s rambling musings

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Because Serbia, Iraq, Afghanistan and North Korea were such splendid pillars of civilization. Terrific, come on down to Pyongyang and enjoy yourself at one of our marvelous resorts. Take a load off.
Get the outta here with that nonsense! If it weren't for the U.S., we'd all be eating canned Borscht from some factory in Vladivostok and enjoy the beauty of 2 channel state television. Your attitude is pretty narrow minded considering, that the U.S. spent roughly 18 billion Dollar in order to rebuild Europe after WW2, all the while, your country remained on the sideline, dancing to the fiddle of pretty much anybody who'd deposit money at a Swiss bank.
Yes, except of the dead ones'.

Don't diss borscht. We make a mean one. It is good with nacho chips and Sicilian pesto.
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Old 06.04.2020, 16:28
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Re: Slammer´s rambling musings

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The EU is showing that it has no relevance at all:
- It doesn't take leadership. in fact, it seems to be invisible
- Every EU member seems to have its own approach, not aligned with others
- Freedom of movement has stopped
- No clear financial support structure
Indeed, it is disappointing to see the lack of plan A and plan B in case of pandemics. But that's the case for all countries, don't know why the expectations were so high from EU (were they? I think some people fake outrage these days). When it imposes some rules everyone is up in their arms because EU is "dictating", Bruxelles does this and does that. So we have to decide to which degree we want EU mixing up with national strategies.
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Old 06.04.2020, 16:40
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Indeed, it is disappointing to see the lack of plan A and plan B in case of pandemics. But that's the case for all countries, don't know why the expectations were so high from EU (were they? I think some people fake outrage these days). When it imposes some rules everyone is up in their arms because EU is "dictating", Bruxelles does this and does that. So we have to decide to which degree we want EU mixing up with national strategies.
It's not about imposing rules but about showing leadership. Times of crisis require leadership.
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Old 06.04.2020, 17:13
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Re: Slammer´s rambling musings

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Because Serbia, Iraq, Afghanistan and North Korea were such splendid pillars of civilization. Terrific, come on down to Pyongyang and enjoy yourself at one of our marvelous resorts. Take a load off.
Get the outta here with that nonsense! If it weren't for the U.S., we'd all be eating canned Borscht from some factory in Vladivostok and enjoy the beauty of 2 channel state television. Your attitude is pretty narrow minded considering, that the U.S. spent roughly 18 billion Dollar in order to rebuild Europe after WW2, all the while, your country remained on the sideline, dancing to the fiddle of pretty much anybody who'd deposit money at a Swiss bank.
You're missing the point.

The US aren't doing what they do for anybody's sake but their own. That's not heroism but egotism, pure and simple. What they do is born out of selfinterest, no more no less. The detestable thing is the exceptionalism, their double standards that even go so far as to rationalise their own genocides while the demonise those of others.
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Old 06.04.2020, 17:28
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Re: Slammer´s rambling musings

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You're missing the point.

The US aren't doing what they do for anybody's sake but their own. That's not heroism but egotism, pure and simple. What they do is born out of selfinterest, no more no less. The detestable thing is the exceptionalism, their double standards that even go so far as to rationalise their own genocides while the demonise those of others.
Which country isn’t though? Or even which individual? It’s not like humankind as a whole is known for its altruism...

I’m in agreement that it may be more obvious with them, simply as they have more power. But the behavior and approach themselves are not precisely unique to the US
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Old 06.04.2020, 17:33
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The detestable thing is the exceptionalism, their double standards that even go so far as to rationalise their own genocides ...
Not sure I've ever seen the US on trial for genocide at the UN.
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Old 06.04.2020, 18:11
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Which country isn’t though? Or even which individual? It’s not like humankind as a whole is known for its altruism...
But but but..what about all these online heros? Internet is all about showing altruism!

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I’m in agreement that it may be more obvious with them, simply as they have more power. But the behavior and approach themselves are not precisely unique to the US
This. Clichès aside..
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Old 06.04.2020, 18:19
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Not sure I've ever seen the US on trial for genocide at the UN.
Yeah... Can't remember there having been one in the last century or so...

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But but but..what about all these online heros? Internet is all about showing altruism!
Altruistic influencers?
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Old 06.04.2020, 18:32
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Altruistic influencers?
Only if they are doing the internet virtue signalling correctly. Every world has its own con-artists.
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Old 06.04.2020, 19:10
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You're missing the point.

The US aren't doing what they do for anybody's sake but their own. That's not heroism but egotism, pure and simple. What they do is born out of selfinterest, no more no less. The detestable thing is the exceptionalism, their double standards that even go so far as to rationalise their own genocides while the demonise those of others.
Wait a minute, so you mean to tell me, that the Swiss banks thought that all the illegal money deposited for decades from dubious sources, despots, war mongers was simply done for altruistic reasons? Self-interest, so be it but there is no one with the right set of mind, that would prefer a different domineering country, other than the U.S. Freedom has its price and I'd rather live under the wings of the soaring bald eagle than having to deal with either stagnating monoliths from out East.
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Old 06.04.2020, 19:16
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It's not about imposing rules but about showing leadership. Times of crisis require leadership.
Very true. Good leadership is rare to come by though.
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