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  #161  
Old 01.04.2020, 16:15
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Re: Corona - The aftermath

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I cannot believe that the UK government is now using a generally available app to run the country from home (Zoom).

Even working for a big Swiss bank, I have to get through several security checks and obstacles developed over the past years to allow me to log-in from home. It takes me almost 3 minutes to login, with my personal access card and access credentials, depending on whether I’m in the Swiss or International zone. It’s been that way since years. And these are constantly revised.

Someone should sack the head of the U.K. governments I.T. department.
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Old 01.04.2020, 16:21
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Re: Corona - The aftermath

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Who is going to look after the children with dead parents? Are these children just collateral damage in your scenario?

Look at the stats. Not many people 60+ have dependant children.
I don't decide the vulnerable, that is for the government and individuals to decide.



What is your alternative then?

Because the current 'wait and see' is going to kill more people through the financial hardship (1st world hardship) in the future than we are saving today.
It's a disease that kills the old, the sick, and very, very rarely a believed to be healthy.



But maybe this has been said before somewhere?
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  #163  
Old 01.04.2020, 16:37
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Re: Corona - The aftermath

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  • Choice C: Keep all the vulnerable secure by whatever means necessary. Keep everything open but dictate/enforce social distancing and protection. Healthcare will not be overwhelmed because the vulnerable are safe. Rate of increase of infections managed by (common sense) measures.
We will move to Choice C anyway. It's when, not if.
This. Maybe with the caveat of starting the economy back up slowly, step by step.

This will very very likely happen in Switzerland, and sooner rather than later. If it turns out I'm wrong, I'll gladly stand corrected. But I very much doubt anyone could, would or will go for A or B. Locking in everyone for extended periods of time is most certainly not an option.

As far as the vulnerable are concerned: this has been defined. At some stage, a level of personal accountability and responsibility needs to kick in too (and that is something that tends to work fairly okay around here anyway). If you have diabetes or heart disease, then choose to quarantine yourself a little longer if you are afraid, use a mask, or do whatever else you feel you need to do to protect yourself. But even for risk groups it's not like they're incapable of having any human interaction at all - follow certain guidelines and be careful, but don't be paranoid either. Just to give that perspective once again: an estimated 500'000 people in Switzerland have diabetes - it's highly unlikely they will all get infected, let alone die, even without measures, but certainly not with certain precaution measures, which they would need to apply for many other things as well anyway. A virus, whether the flu, this one, or any other doesn't spread THAT easily either and it can't hop across the road to infect you.
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  #164  
Old 01.04.2020, 16:38
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Re: Corona - The aftermath

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Look at the stats. Not many people 60+ have dependant children.
I don't decide the vulnerable, that is for the government and individuals to decide.
Read what I wrote.

"In France, more than half of the first 300 people admitted to IC units were under sixty."

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It's a disease that kills the old, the sick, and very, very rarely a believed to be healthy.
It's not killing younger adults (those under sixty) because, compared with much older people, they respond well to hospital IC treatment.

If there are no beds for these younger adults (because they are full), then they will be dying too.

I'm not arguing the economics, merely your apparent misunderstanding of the disease.
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Old 01.04.2020, 16:50
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Re: Corona - The aftermath

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Read what I wrote.

"In France, more than half of the first 300 people admitted to IC units were under sixty."



It's not killing younger adults (those under sixty) because, compared with much older people, they respond well to hospital IC treatment.

If there are no beds for these younger adults (because they are full), then they will be dying too.

I'm not arguing the economics, merely your apparent misunderstanding of the disease.
I've read that in Holland, 90% of the patients on IC are overweight. This seems to be a big risk factor.
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  #166  
Old 01.04.2020, 17:03
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Re: Corona - The aftermath

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I've read that in Holland, 90% of the patients on IC are overweight. This seems to be a big risk factor.
I reads that too - but for patients in the U.K.

Isn't it not the extra body mass that is causing them problems but the health problems associated with obesity such as heart disease and the side-effects of cancer treatments?
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  #167  
Old 01.04.2020, 17:11
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Re: Corona - The aftermath

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Someone should sack the head of the U.K. governments I.T. department.
This is how bad UK Gov IT is. About 10 years ago I had my identity stolen from the HMRC system and it was used to obtain a big tax rebate by someone who filled in an online form. I got a letter informing me and thought it was strange as I didn't recognise the bank details. It was very scary, I had to get the police involved because my NI number had been stolen and used (local police referred it to the Met fraud squad). HMRC were useless, spent a whole working day being shunted round different people in different call centres. I traced the bank account the money was paid to myself, it was at a branch of NatWest in Stratford, East London which was about 400 miles away.

I quizzed HMRC about how someone could have got away with a fraud like this as I had found the online form, which claimed I was a manager with the Post Office on 35k (no address or branch), yet at that point I was registered as a partner in an LLP, there was no home address for me or any other details, just my NI number and the bank details. I was really shocked when HMRC admitted to me the system automatically paid out rebates once it got that info. HMRC then tried to blame me by saying it must have been down to the security on my computer, I ended up shouting at the idiot on the other end of the phone that I worked for a software development company and we were probably running more security than HMRC could shake a stick at.

Fast forward a year, found out that the Met police had caught an E European guy who was working as a builder on the Olympic site. When they raided his flat he had 30 laptops and had managed obtain over 300 tax rebates, paid into the same number of bank accounts which he would then close down once the money had been withdrawn. He got over a million most of which was never recovered. I have never trusted government systems since and for 5 years after I paid an annual fee for extra security checks. With everything now being online it makes me wonder how much tax/benefit fraud is going on
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  #168  
Old 01.04.2020, 17:15
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Re: Corona - The aftermath

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Read what I wrote.

"In France, more than half of the first 300 people admitted to IC units were under sixty."
And were they all classified as healthy or vulnerable. Just saying people are dying is pointless.

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If there are no beds for these younger adults (because they are full), then they will be dying too.
Full of the vulnerable, that would not be the case if the vulnerable were removed from the equation.

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I'm not arguing the economics, merely your apparent misunderstanding of the disease.
I have no misunderstanding. It's killing the old and vulnerable (all emcompassing for arguements sake of anyone who wants to define it).

However I'm looking for solutions so I don't have to work an extra 5 years to get my pension, I don't have my savings bailed into the government coffers, my taxes and health insurance costs go through the roof, my salary is not reduced or does not increase for 10 years, I have a job to go to, the Swiss don't start deporting the unemployed non-citizens, etc etc.

Hopefully won't get to that because at some point push will come to shove.
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  #169  
Old 01.04.2020, 17:19
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Re: Corona - The aftermath

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  • Choice C: Keep all the vulnerable secure by whatever means necessary. Keep everything open but dictate/enforce social distancing and protection. Healthcare will not be overwhelmed because the vulnerable are safe. Rate of increase of infections managed by (common sense) measures.
We will move to Choice C anyway. It's when, not if.
I can see why you'd think this, but I look at it through the lens of the rural area where I come from and how quickly that system can be overwhelmed. The nearest hospital to my hometown is 20 minutes away and has 115 beds. The closest after that is 35 minutes away and has 175 beds. My town now has a population of about 11,000 not to mention the other nearby towns.

If it's an emergency, there is no ambulance service in town, so they have to start at the hospital, drive to my town, and then back.

Similarly, there is only one hospital along the major I-70 corridor between the Denver metro area and the Kansas state line. It has 15 beds. It's 100 miles from Denver. The next nearest hospital is a further 80 miles away in Kansas.
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Old 01.04.2020, 17:20
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Re: Corona - The aftermath

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This. Maybe with the caveat of starting the economy back up slowly, step by step.

Samaire! FFS will you stop it with all this level headness and rationality!


We either stay in our houses and eventually get eaten by rats/go outside and be struck down by the virus, OR, we go back to work and leave the old and sick (and now including the obese) to their own devices.

Survival of the fittest, some will die, many will survive.


It's one or the other, take a side!
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  #171  
Old 01.04.2020, 17:22
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Re: Corona - The aftermath

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I reads that too - but for patients in the U.K.

Isn't it not the extra body mass that is causing them problems but the health problems associated with obesity such as heart disease and the side-effects of cancer treatments?

They were warned. Same as smokers were warned it's bad for their health, and alcoholics.
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  #172  
Old 01.04.2020, 17:30
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Re: Corona - The aftermath

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They were warned.
You can't stop treatment in the middle of the chemo. And so you go now to an oncology dept. where you hope to not get infected by unprotected staff. There isn't enough protective gear at the moment.

You cannot isolate completely the part of population that depends on the rest of humankind more than others. Except babies, they maybe need the rest of the world as much as the older and at risk.

Imagine wanting to isolate all babies from the rest of the world. Parents included. Are you going to give them Zoom classes on how to make scrambled eggs at 9mo of age...

It works in theory, not so well in real life. I know what you mean, though, I think we will all go South Korean way, operational, milions of tests and tracing. Super hygiene, masks. Until the vax is here and relieves those at risk. I think once you vax the whole population, you can't do it fast enough before the virus mutates again.

All because some people craving pangolins.
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  #173  
Old 01.04.2020, 18:01
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Re: Corona - The aftermath

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You can't stop treatment in the middle of the chemo. And so you go now to an oncology dept. where you hope to not get infected by unprotected staff. There isn't enough protective gear at the moment.
I guess that you are talking about other countries? Switzerland is well prepared, since taking action back in January 2020 after the Coronavrus was announced in China.
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  #174  
Old 01.04.2020, 18:16
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Re: Corona - The aftermath

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It works in theory, not so well in real life. I know what you mean, though, I think we will all go South Korean way, operational, milions of tests and tracing. Super hygiene, masks. Until the vax is here and relieves those at risk. I think once you vax the whole population, you can't do it fast enough before the virus mutates again.

Nothing is perfect. Poeple will die because of the shut down, but that seems to be acceptable collateral damage.

We are where we are, pretty sure next time the world won't be going into shutdown again.

If this is a mutating virus (and it's likely to be as it's certainly adaptable), then we'll have to live with it along with the flu.
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Old 01.04.2020, 18:29
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Re: Corona - The aftermath

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We are where we are, pretty sure next time the world won't be going into shutdown again.
I agree. But them we went into a shutdown because nobody has reacted in November when things showed 1st, nobody could, people were silenced in China. Shutdown was imposed only to gain time by pushing inevitable mass infection for later and manufacture quickly all or buy what's needed - reactive agent for tests, hydroalc. gels, masks that keep pouring in now..Create extra beds, mobilize army.

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Old 01.04.2020, 18:39
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Re: Corona - The aftermath

I've been interested in the reports of young people said to have no underlying health conditions dying of this virus in the UK. Back in 2005 the UK suspended the BCG booster injection for TB given to children between the ages of 10-15. After suspension it was only given to babies and children in households with an infected family member, but since this current situation has escalated the UK government are now deciding on whether it should be resurrected again.

Another report I read earlier in the week (think it was in The Independent) said it's known that a number of people who have died in the UK were not vaccinated for TB. I used to work in London Borough of Tower Hamlets which has a large immigrant population (I believe around 60%), many from countries which did not have a vaccination programme. By the mid 90s diseases that had been eradicated after the war had started to re-emerge in this borough, particularly TB. A Consultant Doctor in the area put it down to the fact people went to their home countries for a visit, then brought the disease back with them. (A work colleague of mines who lived in the borough had the misfortune to contract it and was out of action for months).

My late mother in law had TB twice - once at the age of 13 and again in her 30s. Husband and his siblings had the booster, then all had to be tested again at 20 and vaccinated again because the results showed they had no immunity. My husband said last night he has no idea if he's immune now at the age of 59.

I just wonder if there is any correlation between stopping BCG and younger people dying
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Old 01.04.2020, 19:23
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Re: Corona - The aftermath

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All because some people craving pangolins.
lol

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I agree. But them we went into a shutdown because nobody has reacted in November when things showed 1st, nobody could, people were silenced in China.
Silenced, but also because no one gave two craps as long as it was far away enough...

Though I'm also fairly sure China did some shady things in Wuhan...

I guess now that we have Putin to the rescue though, all is well again and it's totally not about politics at all...

(yes I'm becoming sarcastic)
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  #178  
Old 01.04.2020, 23:02
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Re: Corona - The aftermath

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  • Choice C: Keep all the vulnerable secure by whatever means necessary. Keep everything open but dictate/enforce social distancing and protection. Healthcare will not be overwhelmed because the vulnerable are safe. Rate of increase of infections managed by (common sense) measures.
We will move to Choice C anyway. It's when, not if.
The French government has stated that once a unlocking down is started it will be progressive step by step "unlocking down"

doesn't take a lot of imagination who will go out last

https://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/c...tapes-20200401
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Old 01.04.2020, 23:08
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Re: Corona - The aftermath

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The French government has stated that once a unlocking down is started it will be progressive step by step "unlocking down"

doesn't take a lot of imagination who will go out last

https://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/c...tapes-20200401
The 'yellow vests'?
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Old 02.04.2020, 07:47
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Re: Corona - The aftermath

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Samaire! FFS will you stop it with all this level headness and rationality!


We either stay in our houses and eventually get eaten by rats/go outside and be struck down by the virus, OR, we go back to work and leave the old and sick (and now including the obese) to their own devices.

Survival of the fittest, some will die, many will survive.


It's one or the other, take a side!
Nonsense. What you and others in your camp are deliberately choosing to ignore are the following facts:

- the virus can affect very badly not only people with preconditions or in a vulnerable age group

- when it affects badly those 20% out of total cases as estimated so far, those people are likely to need a hospital bed with a breathing aid, otherwise they won't stand a chance

- the so-called preconditions which put some people at a higher risk are, in fact, in most cases mild chronic diseases which otherwise, with a bit of medical control i.e. periodical check-ups/assessments and a couple of super-safe and on a large scale used medicines are really easy to manage for decades and with a good quality of life for the patient

- most families cannot isolate the "sick" one i.e. one person might be sick or with a compromised immune system (like my elder daughter's kindergarten teacher who is young and fit and Swiss but had multiple wrong treatments for a condition that left her with practically no immune system to speak of btw it is just an example), and the rest of the family members who live together are OK, if you let those out now they'll likely to bring the virus at home

The truth is we cannot restart all economic activities, other than the essential ones, right now. Maybe in a couple/few months. Get used to this idea. We have a long fight and it is going to last, don't start complaining like a toddler. This is just the beginning.

We must flatten the curve of infections so that the rate of recoveries starts being higher than the rate of infections. There are various mathematical models which point to this course of action and which exclude the things you're trying to manipulate people to accept or agree to.

In the meantime, they'll be able to test various medicines and treatment schemes and they'll start to figure out a cure or at least something that is likely to work for most cases. I don't think we'll have a vaccine earlier than a year, though there are various research institutes across the globe which are trying their best, but a vaccine needs good testing before it's approved.

Last edited by greenmount; 02.04.2020 at 08:03. Reason: typos
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