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  #261  
Old 02.06.2020, 13:22
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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However from the number of videos released recently it seems that at least in the States the ordinary people are allowed to film the police while the police are carrying out their duty.
In the US it is allowed, as long as the videographer is not interfering with the police action in progress (too close, etc).
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  #262  
Old 02.06.2020, 15:37
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Could anyone enlighten me whether we are now allowed to film the police? I remember it was heavily questioned upon just a few years back, be it in the States or here in Switzerland.

However from the number of videos released recently it seems that at least in the States the ordinary people are allowed to film the police while the police are carrying out their duty.
In the USA there are security cameras everywhere in public spaces. Legally there is little difference between a handheld camera and a mounted one . Thus it would seem that if there ever was a legal argument against filming the police in public spaces , it would seem that battle is now lost .

In Switzerland and many other European countries you still cannot simply erect a camera simply because you feel like it, so it would seem the legal situation is still different .
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  #263  
Old 02.06.2020, 16:37
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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The problem with China, or any other similar power (supposing there is one) is that you don't get only their money, you also import their system (economic, political etc). Some don't necessarily like that. Maybe they had enough of that shite too. Nothing to do with all those "phobias" and -isms some will rush to invoke.
One of the things that happens when you reach a certain level of openness between systems that previously were isolated from one another, is that ideas flow both ways. It could be that a lot of stuff, including political ideas and the associated problem solving strategies, will flow from China to other countries. Which could if the worst comes to the worst, be a catastrophe from a human rights perspective. But ideas can flow the other way too, and if more than a billion Chinese somehow awaken to the idea that an unbridled and uncesnsored democracy is actually a good thing, and start demanding they get one, China could not only itself turn towards the torch of democracy but even (through their example) help carry it into less fortunate parts of the world.

If the American way of life became an ideal so worth striving for in much of the west, especially in the post-war period and up to the end of the Cold War, that wasn't because of America's military might or CIA-sponsored interventionism or mind control conspiracies, but it was the appeal of American imagery, spread through the likes of Hollywood, music and popular culture. And subtly interwoven with it all the concepts of personal freedom, democracy and capitalism.

And this despite (at the time) America itself being far from perfect, if you consider the Civil Rights struggle for example, which was not yet resolved in say the early 1960s when America was already a cultural icon. This was because people recognized in America not only what it was but also what it could be at its best. And that, fundamentally, has not changed.

The Germans today probably make way better cars than the Americans, and a lot of other stuff way better besides, but I think many more Germans still look up to the American ideal, than Americans look up to the German ideal (whatever that is).

So even if China ends up dominating industry and trade, there is a real probability IMHO, that American culture will charm Chinese society and that even many generations from now, there will still be an American ideal that most of the world looks up to.
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  #264  
Old 02.06.2020, 16:41
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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The protestors in Boston were protesting against taxes on tea, and they thus seized the specific item they were protesing about. I think if they had just indifferently trashed half the businesses in Boston, they would not have received the same level of sympathy and history would have taken a different turn.

So if they had now specifically trashed a Trump owned business, or a specific business with a racist back-story, I would still not approve but i would sort of see the point.
I often wonder whether there would be a 'Boston tea party' in the UK in the event of a 'No deal Brexit' and the cost
of Tea rising across the board ( after reverting to World Trade rules ) going up 10 per cent or higher ?
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  #265  
Old 02.06.2020, 16:53
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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One of the things that happens when you reach a certain level of openness between systems that previously were isolated from one another, is that ideas flow both ways. It could be that a lot of stuff, including political ideas and the associated problem solving strategies, will flow from China to other countries. Which could if the worst comes to the worst, be a catastrophe from a human rights perspective. But ideas can flow the other way too, and if more than a billion Chinese somehow awaken to the idea that an unbridled and uncesnsored democracy is actually a good thing, and start demanding they get one, China could not only itself turn towards the torch of democracy but even (through their example) help carry it into less fortunate parts of the world.

If the American way of life became an ideal so worth striving for in much of the west, especially in the post-war period and up to the end of the Cold War, that wasn't because of America's military might or CIA-sponsored interventionism or mind control conspiracies, but it was the appeal of American imagery, spread through the likes of Hollywood, music and popular culture. And subtly interwoven with it all the concepts of personal freedom, democracy and capitalism.

And this despite (at the time) America itself being far from perfect, if you consider the Civil Rights struggle for example, which was not yet resolved in say the early 1960s when America was already a cultural icon. This was because people recognized in America not only what it was but also what it could be at its best. And that, fundamentally, has not changed.

The Germans today probably make way better cars than the Americans, and a lot of other stuff way better besides, but I think many more Germans still look up to the American ideal, than Americans look up to the German ideal (whatever that is).

So even if China ends up dominating industry and trade, there is a real probability IMHO, that American culture will charm Chinese society and that even many generations from now, there will still be an American ideal that most of the world looks up to.
Hmmm.. Free spirit, I would say. It is in my experience a place that is the least inhibited by conventions. It has its dark sides. I do not think that the reason would be capitalism, actually. They have their own definition of it.

I do not think it is just a consumerism driven concept, or just a cultural icon or nostalgic idea that anyone else could package and sell.
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  #266  
Old 02.06.2020, 18:56
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Racism is the same in Europe

I checked how it is in France, and wherever I search, it is the (visible) minorities that are largely overrepresented as as victims at the hands of the police.

E.g.
Liberation: Y a-t-il vraiment vingt à trente personnes qui meurent chaque année «victimes» de la police?
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  #267  
Old 02.06.2020, 19:10
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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So even if China ends up dominating industry and trade, there is a real probability IMHO, that American culture will charm Chinese society and that even many generations from now, there will still be an American ideal that most of the world looks up to.


I sincerely believe that no one needs to be enchanted by anything and that not everyone can sell a chosen model, nor should they.

IMHO Countries will tend to have commercial or economic relations with other countries with similar systems... e.g. if China subsidises some industries, and you're not subsidising the same industries and have different labour standards, then....see what I mean?

Sorry for the off topic, the topic is definitely not China.
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  #268  
Old 02.06.2020, 19:18
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

From the BBC

The Episcopal Bishop of Washington, the Right Reverend Mariann Budde, said: "The president just used a Bible, the most sacred text of the Judeo-Christian tradition, and one of the churches of my diocese, without permission, as a backdrop for a message antithetical to the teachings of Jesus."

James Martin, a Jesuit priest and consultant to the Vatican's communications department, tweeted: "Let me be clear. This is revolting. The Bible is not a prop. A church is not a photo op. Religion is not a political tool. God is not your plaything."

Rabbi Jack Moline, President of the Interfaith Alliance, said: "Seeing President Trump standing in front of St John's Episcopal Church while holding a Bible in response to calls for racial justice - right after using military force to clear peaceful protesters - is one of the most flagrant misuses of religion that I have ever seen."
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  #269  
Old 03.06.2020, 01:12
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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In the USA there are security cameras everywhere in public spaces. Legally there is little difference between a handheld camera and a mounted one . Thus it would seem that if there ever was a legal argument against filming the police in public spaces , it would seem that battle is now lost .

In Switzerland and many other European countries you still cannot simply erect a camera simply because you feel like it, so it would seem the legal situation is still different .
That's not quite true. There are already security cameras mounted in newer version of trains and trams in Switzerland. I strongly doubt nonetheless that the police would permit you to film them
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  #270  
Old 03.06.2020, 01:19
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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I was just reading the US news... Apparently, a second / independent autopsy has just found that George Floyd's death was indeed caused by asphyxia.
Now that's a BIG question mark: How can the first autopsy result be even concluded but yet not be scrutinised and questioned heavily by the media? At least I haven't read anything in Switzerland!
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  #271  
Old 03.06.2020, 01:47
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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.... there will still be an American ideal that most of the world looks up to.
(my bold)
It does? I hadn't thought so.

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  #272  
Old 03.06.2020, 06:48
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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If the American way of life became an ideal so worth striving for in much of the west, especially in the post-war period and up to the end of the Cold War, that wasn't because of America's military might or CIA-sponsored interventionism or mind control conspiracies, but it was the appeal of American imagery, spread through the likes of Hollywood, music and popular culture. And subtly interwoven with it all the concepts of personal freedom, democracy and capitalism.

And this despite (at the time) America itself being far from perfect, if you consider the Civil Rights struggle for example, which was not yet resolved in say the early 1960s when America was already a cultural icon. This was because people recognized in America not only what it was but also what it could be at its best. And that, fundamentally, has not changed.
But it has changed. The present republican party is openly disdainful of democracy. Trump incites division within the USA like no American president in recent history.

As for capitalism; the USA faints at the word socialist. This is fighting a battle that belongs to the last century. If you cannot see the advantages of a mixed economy you have not being paying attention or rather you are so blinded by your prejudices that you are not open to the idea that the what is important is the detail in the mix of socialism/capitalism.

Also, maybe concepts like transparency, limiting corruption and freedom of expression are at least as important as the economic system. These are not just empty phrases, they need to be actively implemented.

As for personal freedom: In the USA (only on holiday I must admit), UK, NZ and Switzerland I have experienced freedom with minor limitations. But then I am not black.

Last edited by KiwiSteve; 03.06.2020 at 06:58. Reason: grammar
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  #273  
Old 03.06.2020, 07:02
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

I don’t believe that taking photos or filming is illegal in Switzerland (or the US). But what could be illegal is what you do with the images. Here you must maintain peoples right to privacy. Google, for street view, must blur license plates and faces.

Giving a video to a media site in itself would not be prohibited, but what they do with it would be subject to the rules.
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  #274  
Old 03.06.2020, 07:10
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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I don’t believe that taking photos or filming is illegal in Switzerland (or the US). But what could be illegal is what you do with the images. Here you must maintain peoples right to privacy. Google, for street view, must blur license plates and faces.

Giving a video to a media site in itself would not be prohibited, but what they do with it would be subject to the rules.
AFAIK this is not quite true. Recording conversations and taking photos are an invasion of privacy and just the act itself may, depending on the circumstances, be illegal under swiss law. Maybe a lawyer can can clarify this.
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  #275  
Old 03.06.2020, 08:02
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Yeah. My former partner is from the Fairfax area in LA, I also have friends there, and am visiting them several times a year (well normally that is). I recognize the buildings that are now partly on fire or at best boarded up and graffitied, having been to, shopped or eaten at many of them many, many times. It’s a bit like my second home and it’s awful to see it like this.
Let's hope you'll be able to visit these places again very soon...(I might be very optimistic now )

I'm trying to get friends to visit us.....as I couldn't honour at least four invitations in the past 6 years (would have been more difficult with my family's current format). I'm trying to get the Americans here (well, I can call all of them Ami's now) but damn, they work way too hard for that dream. Not so many "disposable" holidays like we have here. I even tried to "lure" them to CH "because this is what your other American dream is ... to visit Europe"... Kidding, of course.

Post riots and post corona crisis or even post elections, who knows.... Either us or them. I totally get your nostalgia btw.

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But it has changed. The present republican party is openly disdainful of democracy. Trump incites division within the USA like no American president in recent history.

As for capitalism; the USA faints at the word socialist. This is fighting a battle that belongs to the last century. If you cannot see the advantages of a mixed economy you have not being paying attention or rather you are so blinded by your prejudices that you are not open to the idea that the what is important is the detail in the mix of socialism/capitalism.

Also, maybe concepts like transparency, limiting corruption and freedom of expression are at least as important as the economic system. These are not just empty phrases, they need to be actively implemented.

As for personal freedom: In the USA (only on holiday I must admit), UK, NZ and Switzerland I have experienced freedom with minor limitations. But then I am not black.
This. And yet so many people are stuck in a discourse that belongs to the last century imho.

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As for personal freedom: In the USA (only on holiday I must admit), UK, NZ and Switzerland I have experienced freedom with minor limitations.
Wasn't the same in France, Italy, Spain, Germany etc?

Last edited by greenmount; 03.06.2020 at 08:50. Reason: merging consecutive posts
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  #276  
Old 03.06.2020, 09:01
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

Jordan Uhl, a political consultant and activist in Washington, D.C., wanted to make sure as many people saw these videos as possible. Encouraged by a friend, he edited together 14 clips, including one from a reporter at The New York Times of an officer accelerating and opening a car door that hit protesters. The result is a two-minute, 13-second supercut that he called “This is a police state”.

https://twitter.com/jordanuhl/status...752056320?s=21
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  #277  
Old 03.06.2020, 09:32
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Jordan Uhl, a political consultant and activist in Washington, D.C., wanted to make sure as many people saw these videos as possible. Encouraged by a friend, he edited together 14 clips, including one from a reporter at The New York Times of an officer accelerating and opening a car door that hit protesters. The result is a two-minute, 13-second supercut that he called “This is a police state”.

https://twitter.com/jordanuhl/status...752056320?s=21
I don’t think I have any words left for this, of course fully realizing it’s still a minority of police that is acting like this, but still...

Edit. Actually, I do have words. They all start with a big freaking F. I seriously can't believe what I'm seeing here. What the F is wrong with the world, how is this allowed to happen.

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  #278  
Old 03.06.2020, 10:04
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

Ever so often people need to sit down and ask themselves “Is this working”? From my perspective it is not. Curfews are ignored, people still gather, protests still occur and, regrettably damage is done and things continue to be stolen.

What is the objective of the various police forces? Is it to stop the protests? Why? Is it to stop the damage and looting? That is where they should be focusing their efforts.
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  #279  
Old 03.06.2020, 10:05
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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I don’t think I have any words left for this, of course fully realizing it’s still a minority of police that is acting like this, but still...

Edit. Actually, I do have words. They all start with a big freaking F. I seriously can't believe what I'm seeing here. What the F is wrong with the world, how is this allowed to happen.
Even the horses looked traumatised !
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Old 03.06.2020, 10:29
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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I don’t think I have any words left for this, of course fully realizing it’s still a minority of police that is acting like this, but still...

Edit. Actually, I do have words. They all start with a big freaking F. I seriously can't believe what I'm seeing here. What the F is wrong with the world, how is this allowed to happen.
Yeah, it's all fun and games until the big boys decide not to play nice anymore. I don't see anything wrong with it. My favorite is the pudgy guy in the white sleeveless shirt who turns around and starts mouthing off. . .and then a minute or so later you can hear him saying "Ok, I'm leaving, I'm leaving, I'm leaving".
I don't know what part of go away these people don't understand. There are set curfews in 40 diffrerent cities across the nation and areas where they are allowed to peacefully protest, anywhere else, they'd have to deal with the consequences. Blocking off highways and intersections and what not is a no go in my book. Kudos to the police officers for exerting such restraint.
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