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Old 03.06.2020, 19:07
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

I'd guess that there are probably many police officers who know a "bad apple" or two amongst their ranks, but cannot report it, even when they're against such aggression, because their colleagues and superiors approve of the violence, or else choose to look away. Some leave the police force as a result. Which may tip the ratio of "bad apples".

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"Some jobs, everybody gotta be good. Like … pilots. Ya know, American Airlines can’t be like, 'Most of our pilots like to land. We just got a few bad apples that like to crash into mountains. Please bear with us.'"-chris rock
Thanks for quoting this.
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  #302  
Old 03.06.2020, 19:13
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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I would say that‘s no different than what many people have said. What positive actions has he suggested?
To first agree on something. I thought it was more than obvious.

Nobody can get anywhere without that step, it's pretty important, imho.
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  #303  
Old 03.06.2020, 19:13
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Yeah, you see, the solution for that problem is very complex. For one, police brutality are isolated incidents and the vast majority of police officers dislike an unprofessional colleague just like the victims they abuse. Mainly because it gives them a bad name and it is unethical, inhumane and it is against their professional code.
The main issue on hand has more to do with a false narrative projected by the media. If we go by figures, so far in 2020, 31 black people had been shot by the police (42 white people). As a juxtaposition, the weekend from May 29th until 1st June, in Chicago alone, 84 people had been shot, of which 23 fatally. There is no uproar about it, nobody is marching for something which constitutes a mostly black on black issue. In that context, black lives only matter when a white man is the one taking it. The issue also expands to private citizens and is not limited to law enforcement officers. When roughly 90something percent (I forgot the exact figure, but it was over 90%) of African Americans get killed by fellow African Americans, then the issue is not the police force with a few bad apples, the issue lies within their community and it seems unjust to cry wolf for something which actually is being completely misrepresented.

Well yeah.

Those black people killed by white police - how often are those police brought to trial or is it just pushed under the rug. In many situations, it‘s not even considered a crime. And even George Zimmerman was acquitted. It‘s a lot of shoot first, ask later.

Black on black crime is more often brought to trial.

It‘s inappropriate to frame these as identical.

There are racist cops in the US, there are Cops who probably don‘t have what it takes to be a cop. There have been reports of white supremacist infiltration in US law enforcement. If even 1% of cops are racist, and they‘re not weeded out, that‘s too many.


I know we like to blame the media for everything, but some of this crap in the US is due to a rise in authoritarianism and racist ideology. In the US, some people are still fighting the Civil war, too.
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  #304  
Old 03.06.2020, 19:16
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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  #305  
Old 03.06.2020, 19:19
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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I'd guess that there are probably many police officers who know a "bad apple" or two amongst their ranks, but cannot report it, even when they're against such aggression, because their colleagues and superiors approve of the violence, or else choose to look away. Some leave the police force as a result. Which may tip the ratio of "bad apples".


Thanks for quoting this.




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  #306  
Old 03.06.2020, 19:36
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

I posted that same pic on facebook and got this back! Meaning???? Tried a few time but Facebook greys it out. Total idiots they are in Facebook.
racial-time-bomb-usa-unbenannt.png

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  #307  
Old 03.06.2020, 20:12
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Someone simply standing at a protest does not deserve to have their face pepper-sprayed by a cop or to be run over by a cop car. This entire thing began due to a cop(s) abusing his power with unnecessary show of force in the first place. It's pretty obvious in those video clips that some of these cops are taking out their aggression on innocent protestors -- ones who are not looting, etc.

The first amendment of the US Constitution states:

"Amendment I:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
The keyword is "peaceably", which is not the case in most of the videos. What is also not the case, is that the protesters can follow directions. You see, all that yelling and screaming impedes some people from understanding, "get out of here", for whatever reason that may be.
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It doesn‘t have to be prevalent.
Well in that case, let me ask you, does all this make sense, if it's not prevalent?
How can you prevent an isolated incident?
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Again I disagree. It isn’t just that the brutality exists, but that little is actually being done to stop it. Black Children do not look to the police as protectors but as the enemy.

And the Qualified Immunity (Search that) that the police have in the US likely means they are never held to account for their actions. Nowhere else gives their police such immunity, and nowhere else has the brutality problem.
As stated before, the brutality exists only on a very small scale. There is no systematic racism. The police officers involved are being held aacountable. From the very beginning, all 4 officers involved got fired and the main idiot is being charged with murder.
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Police is the recourse to resolve such 90% crime, when using them as a recourse it shouldn't be a possible source of worry that you might get jammed by them. blue on black crime is a serious issue perpetuated by the same admin policies by local PD .

I like how you call them bad apples and always disregard the "spoil the bunch" part. those other 3 officers are the spoiled bunch and that creeps through the force.

"Some jobs, everybody gotta be good. Like … pilots. Ya know, American Airlines can’t be like, 'Most of our pilots like to land. We just got a few bad apples that like to crash into mountains. Please bear with us.'"-chris rock
Right, so, remember the German pilot who a couple of years ago flew a plane full of passenger into a mountain? Isolated incident, right? How could it be prevented?

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I'm not sure where you got your numbers from. This article gives a different slant :
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...ings-database/
The general level of gun deaths in the USA is notorious and also that a lot of the black on black killings are gang related is well known.
I don't think this takes away in any way from the racism deeply entrenched in some parts of american society including some police forces.
This is not a case of a few bad apples. It is a symptom of deep seated prejudices that have been handed down over the centuries. I have some red-necked relatives. Their views cannot be prettified. They are racists.
The figures are the same but I'm happy to provide you with all the figures you'd like to see. Your figures state the % of shooting per capita, my figures show the numbers. The reason for black people getting shot at a higher rate is because they commit crimes at a higher rate. Well, a fraction of the black population commits crimes at the higher rate. Like someone stated before, it hurts everybody, the victims as well as regular hardworking black people.


The way I see it, the incident is absolutely despicable, no doubt about it. Something similar also happened in Switzerland to a deportee a few years ago, while he was in custody. However, one cannot claim racism for something which is not the norm and then turn around and shoot each other at a staggering rate. It's hypocritical and not conducive to a harmonious exchange. But the media makes it sound like black people are the victims of relentless white racism all the time, everywhere.
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  #308  
Old 03.06.2020, 20:28
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

[QUOTE=lost_inbroad;3187677]

Well in that case, let me ask you, does all this make sense, if it's not prevalent?
How can you prevent an isolated incident?

As stated before, the brutality exists only on a very small scale. There is no systematic racism. The police officers involved are being held aacountable. From the very beginning, all 4 officers involved got fired and the main idiot is being charged with murder.

/[QUOTE]

And yet, you focus on a single incident. But protesters are focused on repeated incidents.

And it’s not prevalent in the sense that more than half the cops or some other Big percentage are killing black folks, but it seems to happen often enough and the circumstances often speak bad judgement and/or bias.


But look, you’re not going to convince me, I’m not going to convince you, so have a good night.
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Old 03.06.2020, 21:04
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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There are racist cops in the US, there are Cops who probably don‘t have what it takes to be a cop. There have been reports of white supremacist infiltration in US law enforcement. If even 1% of cops are racist, and they‘re not weeded out, that‘s too many.


I know we like to blame the media for everything, but some of this crap in the US is due to a rise in authoritarianism and racist ideology. In the US, some people are still fighting the Civil war, too.
Sad. And I personally tend to believe it's true.

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I'm not sure where you got your numbers from. This article gives a different slant :
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...ings-database/
The general level of gun deaths in the USA is notorious and also that a lot of the black on black killings are gang related is well known.
I don't think this takes away in any way from the racism deeply entrenched in some parts of american society including some police forces.
This is not a case of a few bad apples. It is a symptom of deep seated prejudices that have been handed down over the centuries. I have some red-necked relatives. Their views cannot be prettified. They are racists.
They must be the definition of fun at family gatherings....
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  #310  
Old 03.06.2020, 21:25
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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As stated before, the brutality exists only on a very small scale. There is no systematic racism. The police officers involved are being held aacountable. From the very beginning, all 4 officers involved got fired and the main idiot is being charged with murder.
If you believe that then you are part of the problem. A functioning democracy requires a police force that has the confidence of the majority of the citizenry and that is not even remotely the case in the US today. And it will remain an issue until that is addressed.

This problem will continue to flare up until such time as the policing of the US is reformed for head to toe and a police force that enjoys the confidence of the vast majority of the people is established. We've seen it in Ireland in 1923, in Northern Ireland with the GFA and now once again in the US. You can not have a functioning democracy without a police force that polices at the will of the people.
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Old 03.06.2020, 21:28
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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And what is the population ratio? What percentage is 31 to the total black population, and 42 to the total white population?

If you want to go down that road you also need to identify what percentage of the relative populations are likely to get involved in violent crime in the first place. Gang crimes, an area where AFAIK the majority of gun-related homicides occur, do supposedly affect certain races more than others (we should be asking why, rather than pretending it isn't so). If gang members do from time to time get killed in shoot-outs with the police, does that make the police racist? Does it mean the average law-abiding African American is more at risk of being shot than his white counterpart?
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  #312  
Old 03.06.2020, 21:38
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Well in that case, let me ask you, does all this make sense, if it's not prevalent?
How can you prevent an isolated incident?
The whole point of the protests is that it’s not an isolated incident. If black guys die for no apparent reason on a regular basis is there a problem that goes a little beyond the racism that can be found in many countries. This was just an extreme case with video proof that left no space for wrong interpretations. It still took days of protest till the cop was arrested- it took till today(!) that the others cops watching on for eight minutes finally face charges as well. I bet they wouldn’t if it wasn’t for the protests.
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  #313  
Old 03.06.2020, 21:41
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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This problem will continue to flare up until such time as the policing of the US is reformed for head to toe and a police force that enjoys the confidence of the vast majority of the people is established. We've seen it in Ireland in 1923, in Northern Ireland with the GFA and now once again in the US. You can not have a functioning democracy without a police force that polices at the will of the people.
Agreed.

But what is the will of the people? Just because you can muster a large crowd and make a lot of noise does not make you a majority or even representative. This is increasingly a problem in the present age where there is a lot of professional organisation and correograpy of public outrage, and also where there is an increasing polarization of the extremes of the spectrum (making it more difficut to agree on anything) as well as (in some cases) political instrumentalization of the police.

Healing needs to start with society itself.
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  #314  
Old 03.06.2020, 21:52
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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I posted that same pic on facebook and got this back! Meaning???? Tried a few time but Facebook greys it out. Total idiots they are in Facebook.
Attachment 139543
because it's not a real Time Magazine cover, but a mock-up.
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  #315  
Old 03.06.2020, 22:17
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

Here’s some info on institutionalized racism in the US, for perspective.

https://daily.jstor.org/
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Old 03.06.2020, 22:22
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Right, so, remember the German pilot who a couple of years ago flew a plane full of passenger into a mountain? Isolated incident, right? How could it be prevented?


like the 2 crew in cockpit policy that the FAA has since 2001. that has led to 0 of those events. same policy that EASA Took and then sadly dropped in favor of other risks assesment. so there is that. I guess in the case of cops maybe not have one on the streets that had 19 complaints or 1 with an open IA complain.

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The figures are the same but I'm happy to provide you with all the figures you'd like to see. Your figures state the % of shooting per capita, my figures show the numbers. The reason for black people getting shot at a higher rate is because they commit crimes at a higher rate. Well, a fraction of the black population commits crimes at the higher rate. Like someone stated before, it hurts everybody, the victims as well as regular hardworking black people.

That is for you to establish as a reason. Are also black people black drivers since they are 2x as likely to be cited or search on traffic stops?


or perhaps there is an inherent bias due to policy and quotas, for example ?

people smarter than both of us have done this and more studies regarding that. and as much has come out thanks to the NYPD compstat tapes or Michael Wood Jr explaining of inner workings of the baltimore police department, to name a few.
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  #317  
Old 03.06.2020, 22:25
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

US police forces have been out of control for decades. Black crime in the US has been out of control for decades. Each perpetuates the other. If eight years of Barack Obama couldn’t improve the situation then I don’t really see what can. Very sad to see really, and when this is all done and dusted many of those protesters will have to live amongst the rubble that they’ve created.
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Old 03.06.2020, 22:51
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

  • Unarmed black people were killed at 5x the rate of unarmed whites in 2015
  • Only 13 of the 104 cases in 2015 where an unarmed black person was killed by police resulted in officer(s) being charged with a crime. 4 of these cases have ended in a mistrial or charges against the officer(s) being dropped and 4 cases are still awaiting trial or have a trial underway. Only 4 cases (Matthew Ajibade, Eric Harris, Paterson Brown Jr., and William Chapman) have resulted in convictions of officers involved, with a fifth case (Walter Scott) resulting in the officer pleading guilty.
  • Of the 4 cases where the officer(s) involved have been convicted and sentenced, none were sentenced to serve more than 4 years in prison. Only 1 of 2 officers convicted for their involvement in Matthew Ajibade's death received jail time. He was sentenced to 1 year in jail and allowed to serve this time exclusively on weekends. The officer who killed Paterson Brown was sentenced to only 3 months in jail. Deputy Bates, who killed Eric Harris, was sentenced to 4 years in prison and Officer Cobb, who killed William Chapman, was sentenced to 2.5 years in prison. Officer Slager, who killed Walter Scott and pled guilty, has yet to be sentenced.

https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/unarmed
Disclaimer: I do not know anything about the owners/authors of this website.
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  #319  
Old 04.06.2020, 00:21
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

It's not about this one case. That's just the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.

It's about decades of systemic/institutional discrimination across the board (despite fairly consistently denied by people left and right), years of latent (or not so latent) anger and frustration, years of deep division, decades of growing inequality (beautifully abused by politicians also from left to right), culminating in locking in people for months with zero economic safety net, exploding unemployment numbers, eventually leading to a point where even the most ignorant and unaware moron will have realised what crisis is now looming on the horizon and that it will hit the usual suspect the hardest. And yes, however much people want to deny it, that pathetic excuse for a president most certainly has a huge part to play in all of this too, a scum who for the past few years has had nothing better to do than add a gas tanker full of fuel to quite literally any fire he could and can possibly find or invent to divide this country even further, and usually just because.

This type of conflict has been a long way coming. While I'm deeply horrified (and concerned), and shocked at the extent of it, I'm in many ways also surprised it took this long.

At least in the meantime, all four policemen have been charged. So there's that. Agree with Treverus that the other three wouldn't have been charged had it not been for the entire world watching. Meanwhile, for a guy who paid with a fake 20$ bill, wittingly or not, four policemen showed up to bring him in handcuffs to the closest precinct or worse. Anyone who STILL denies the absolutely obvious double standard in just this one case just can't be helped.

And in the meantime, let's wait for the acquittal and see what that will lead to. If this is hell breaking loose, good luck with step 2. Here's hoping they're at least smart enough to not acquit any of them.
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Old 04.06.2020, 07:15
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Sad. And I personally tend to believe it's true.



They must be the definition of fun at family gatherings....
Actually the ones I was thinking of are good fun. I mentioned it just to highlight that seemingly "good people" can hold entrenched racist views. These people are then more likely to accept/rationalise overt racist acts by others.


As the t-shirts say, if you are neutral on race issues then you are part of the problem. I am not sure that any of the cops caught on video in the USA come under the umbrella of "good people"
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