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  #21  
Old 29.05.2020, 14:18
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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But what is happening now is that people are nominally blaming the president yet using that as a free pass to loot some flat screen TV or alcohol, or just destroy somebody else's business out of pure spite. That's not protest. They're ultimately hurting themselves.
It is not simply "they" or "them", yes there are people disabusing the situation, there are also people protecting the town and stores, there are also people doing nothing wrong out on the streets who still are angry as hell.

But all of them have in common that they seem to agree that the president is doing nothing and that there still are a decent bunch off pigs in law enforcement
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Old 29.05.2020, 14:21
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Protecting themselves from what though? An unarmed man paying groceries with counterfeit money? What did they think he was gonna do, shoot them with the dollar bill?

Or do you mean protecting their own from actually being punished for the crimes they themselves are supposed to prevent or punish?
Yes, protecting their own. The blue wall of silence.
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Old 29.05.2020, 14:25
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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It is not simply "they" or "them", yes there are people disabusing the situation, there are also people protecting the town and stores, there are also people doing nothing wrong out on the streets who still are angry as hell.

But all of them have in common that they seem to agree that the president is doing nothing and that there still are a decent bunch off pigs in law enforcement
Napoleon Bonaparte only came to the public attention when he ordered soldiers to open fire on a crowd whose protest had gone a little too far and had got a little too violent. That's the sort of decision-level leadership that appeals to law and order folks who weren't actually there to see the blood and the corpses piled high, and that's why they formed a cult around him, which ultimately permitted him to conquer half of Europe.

If Trump is, as many of his detractors claim, is a dictator in waiting, then it seems to me to be rather stupid to offer him such a symbolic Napoleon moment on a silver tray. Especially after announcing that he is prepared to do precisely that.
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Old 29.05.2020, 14:30
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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I don't think anybody was ridiculed across the board for taking a knee. Some people ridiculed it, sure. But I think by and large that's not what happened. That said, when you protest you know that somebody else may counter-protest, or twist your words, or just say something stupid. It's a bit naive to expect otherwise. Nobody has a monopoly on protest.

But what is happening now is that people are nominally blaming the president yet using that as a free pass to loot some flat screen TV or alcohol, or just destroy somebody else's business out of pure spite. That's not protest. They're ultimately hurting themselves.
"Hurting themselves" is not a definition of a crime. Looting makes courts and prisons busy.
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Old 29.05.2020, 14:48
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

Human rights and abuse by overzealous cops seem to be a serious problem in the US and shouldn’t be easily let go. Protests and riots are understood. However, shops looting and opportunism should be treated as crime. Those are results of social divides and show deeper problems in the US system.
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Old 29.05.2020, 14:50
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Napoleon Bonaparte only came to the public attention when he ordered soldiers to open fire on a crowd whose protest had gone a little too far and had got a little too violent. That's the sort of decision-level leadership that appeals to law and order folks who weren't actually there to see the blood and the corpses piled high, and that's why they formed a cult around him, which ultimately permitted him to conquer half of Europe.

If Trump is, as many of his detractors claim, is a dictator in waiting, then it seems to me to be rather stupid to offer him such a symbolic Napoleon moment on a silver tray. Especially after announcing that he is prepared to do precisely that.
In Napeleons days it was a bit more common to follow orders and also to shoot at people during protests.

Even if Trump would give the order I strongly doubt if the people in local command would follow up. And I also think it would eventually lead to Trumps downfall if he would initiate something that could be compared to the Kent-State massacre in any way. Riots across the country would be immense.
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Old 29.05.2020, 15:10
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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I agree about the polarization and how that may be lowering the threshold to violence.

But plundering and setting fire to shops is not a form of political protest - or political violence even - but just selfish and self-serving idiocy.
Actually I strongly disagree and it also goes against every historical fact.
Revolutions start with some violent protest, even the symbol of American liberation, the famous Boston Tea Party was actually a stealing of private merchandise. Let me give you a quote from Wikipedia:
".... They boarded the ships and threw the chests of tea into the Boston Harbor. The British government responded harshly and the episode escalated into the American Revolution...."
So, the Michigan looters are doing exactly by the book. Seriously, I don't like the violence, but it's a result of lack of democratic process, as always.
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Old 29.05.2020, 15:16
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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I don't think anybody was ridiculed across the board for taking a knee. Some people ridiculed it, sure. But I think by and large that's not what happened. That said, when you protest you know that somebody else may counter-protest, or twist your words, or just say something stupid. It's a bit naive to expect otherwise. Nobody has a monopoly on protest.

But what is happening now is that people are nominally blaming the president yet using that as a free pass to loot some flat screen TV or alcohol, or just destroy somebody else's business out of pure spite. That's not protest. They're ultimately hurting themselves.
Hmm, rather clear what side of the political spectrum you are on. When the president of the "free world" ridicules you for politely protesting, that is a rather across the board ridicule.

Sure there's some jerks in the riot using this an excuse to break things, but that's not what this is about. Focus on what caused these riots to instigate. Abject poverty, inequality, police violence and racism.
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Old 29.05.2020, 15:17
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Actually I strongly disagree and it also goes against every historical fact.
Revolutions start with some violent protest, even the symbol of American liberation, the famous Boston Tea Party was actually a stealing of private merchandise. Let me give you a quote from Wikipedia:
".... They boarded the ships and threw the chests of tea into the Boston Harbor. The British government responded harshly and the episode escalated into the American Revolution...."
So, the Michigan looters are doing exactly by the book. Seriously, I don't like the violence, but it's a result of lack of democratic process, as always.
The proterster in Boston were protesting against taxes on tea, and they thus seized the specific item they were protesing about. I think if they had just indifferently trashed half the businesses in Boston, they would not have received the same level of sympathy and history would have taken a different turn.

So if they had now specifically trashed a Trump owned business, or a specific business with a racist back-story, I would still not approve but i would sort of see the point.
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Old 29.05.2020, 15:24
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Sure there's some jerks in the riot using this an excuse to break things, but that's not what this is about.
What it's really about is looting a new TV.
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  #31  
Old 29.05.2020, 15:27
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Seriously, I don't like the violence, but it's a result of lack of democratic process, as always.
I always felt like the democracy here integrates everyone, it is a priori 100% non discriminatory. It costs everyone a lot. It is very expensive and everybody chips in.

I cannot imagine what would happen if somebody started to loot here, on whatever pretext.
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  #32  
Old 29.05.2020, 15:28
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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The proterster in Boston were protesting against taxes on tea, and they thus seized the specific item they were protesing about. I think if they had just indifferently trashed half the businesses in Boston, they would not have received the same level of sympathy and history would have taken a different turn.

So if they had now specifically trashed a Trump owned business, or a specific business with a racist back-story, I would still not approve but i would sort of see the point.
Well, that's only part of the history actually. The larger issue was the 'taxation without representation' that led to the revolution. For many expats, this rings true as well for FACTA
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  #33  
Old 29.05.2020, 15:30
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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I always felt like the democracy here integrates everyone, it is a priori 100% non discriminatory. It costs everyone a lot. It is very expensive and everybody chips in.

I cannot imagine what would happen if somebody started to loot here, on whatever pretext.
It happens sometimes on 1st May marches in Zürich, but on a much smaller scale mind you. And even the hardcore lefties criticisze it.
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Old 29.05.2020, 15:41
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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..So if they had now specifically trashed a Trump owned business, or a specific business with a racist back-story, I would still not approve but i would sort of see the point.
Revolutions (or looting) starts because logic doesn't work. On both sides. When people start moving en mass, you cannot stop them and you don't know in which direction they will go.
That's why any peace keeping force try to de-escalate the tensions. And the one who yearn for "final solution", they escalate. I am not saying looting is right, but it's expected. Somehow i cannot believe that some people in Michigan sent a guy to die as martyr, so they can loot few shops.
Every revolution was full of murdering, looting and all other wrongs. I still wouldn't say that French or American one lost its legality because of that. If you would ask Hapsburgs in 1315, they would say Swiss cowardly ambushed their forces after raiding an Abbey under their protection.
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Old 29.05.2020, 15:41
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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I always felt like the democracy here integrates everyone, it is a priori 100% non discriminatory. It costs everyone a lot. It is very expensive and everybody chips in.

I cannot imagine what would happen if somebody started to loot here, on whatever pretext.
Everything taken into account, I don't think the Swiss system costs that much.

Switzerland doesn't have a traditional govt vs opposition setup. The government covers most major parties and is based on consensus. Elections shift the individual influence of groups within the political spectrum, but you don't get these 180 degree turns in which a new government comes in and then undoes half of what the previous government has acheived, only for the next government to come in and put it back. That must be much more costly than what Switzerland is doing.
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Old 29.05.2020, 15:44
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Somehow i cannot believe that some people in Michigan sent a guy to die as martyr, so they can loot few shops.
Of course not.

But there are plenty of opportunists who won't let a good opportunity go to waste.
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Old 29.05.2020, 15:46
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Of course not.

But there are plenty of opportunists who won't let a good opportunity go to waste.
Why are you choosing to focus on the looters rather than the real problem? Does the killing of multiple innocent people not concern you?
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Old 29.05.2020, 15:57
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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It happens sometimes on 1st May marches in Zürich, but on a much smaller scale mind you. And even the hardcore lefties criticisze it.
Because incivilities are an extra cost, on top of the price everyone pays for democracy here. But then, taxes are low, because everyone pays them. It comes cheaper than elsewhere where they rebuild from scratch, every time the admin changes.
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  #39  
Old 29.05.2020, 15:59
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Why are you choosing to focus on the looters rather than the real problem? Does the killing of multiple innocent people not concern you?
Do you think that stealing stuff will bring multiple innocent people back to life?

Do you think that looters and violence are advancing or preventing a discussion on the root issues here?
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Old 29.05.2020, 16:01
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Do you think that stealing stuff will bring multiple innocent people back to life?
Of course not, but it seems to be the issue that most people are focusing on rather than the reason it started.

Several innocent unarmed people have been killed in recent times, "but the looters!!"
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