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  #601  
Old 11.06.2020, 09:16
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Why is it madness and hypocrisy to realise that maybe these statues are well past their best by date ?
Should we level most of Rome? I mean these statues and relics are well past their best by date
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  #602  
Old 11.06.2020, 09:26
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Why would the Brits have anything to come to terms with events of over 200 years ago? Maybe at the time a great many people came to terms with it anyway and the hand wringing is over and done with.
Perhaps because modern Brits are still benefitting from it. I doubt you would concede this obvious point though.
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Old 11.06.2020, 09:28
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Should we level most of Rome? I mean these statues and relics are well past their best by date
Italy will be expected to remove all statues of Julius Caesar next
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  #604  
Old 11.06.2020, 09:30
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Italy will be expected to remove all statues of Julius Caesar next
Ah come on, who doesn't love a genocidal enslaver?
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  #605  
Old 11.06.2020, 09:32
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Should we level most of Rome? I mean these statues and relics are well past their best by date
Toppling roman statues is very much a roman idea, they had no issue with it.

In fact it even has a term damnatio memoriae.

More importantly:

Removing a statue of a racist is not erasing history.
It decommemorating that individual.
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  #606  
Old 11.06.2020, 09:33
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Perhaps because modern Brits are still benefitting from it. I doubt you would concede this obvious point though.
Yes, the British Empire made the modern world, end of debate. One can also not emphasise enough the extent to which the British Industrial Revolution changed the course of humanity. This is not something to feel guilty about, this is something to celebrate!
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  #607  
Old 11.06.2020, 09:35
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Toppling roman statues is very much a roman idea, they had no issue with it.

In fact it even has a term damnatio memoriae.

More importantly:

Removing a statue of a racist is not erasing history.
It decommemorating that individual.
Then let's flatten Rome then! Afterall we'd only be decommemorating an entire city owned by racists and built by slaves
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  #608  
Old 11.06.2020, 09:35
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Yes, the British Empire made the modern world, end of debate. One can also not emphasise enough the extent to which the British Industrial Revolution changed the course of humanity. This is not something to feel guilty about, this is something to celebrate!
Ah, if that's the end of the debate, great, glad you've solved it all. Can we close the thread now?
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  #609  
Old 11.06.2020, 09:37
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Italy will be expected to remove all statues of Julius Caesar next
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Ah come on, who doesn't love a genocidal enslaver?
Et tu, Brute?
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  #610  
Old 11.06.2020, 09:39
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

The Romans figured this whole thing out thousands of years ago by creating sculptures with detachable heads. When the person being memorialized fell out of favor, they just stuck a new head on there.


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Old 11.06.2020, 09:40
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Then let's flatten Rome then! Afterall we'd only be decommemorating an entire city owned by racists and built by slaves
Wouldn't be the first time.

Btw, if you keep rolling your eyes that way they'll get stuck.
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  #612  
Old 11.06.2020, 09:43
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Should we level most of Rome? I mean these statues and relics are well past their best by date
The Romans were the ones who started all this nonsense.

Many Roman emperors blatantly destroyed the statues of their predecessors, and instructed the historians to explain how evil there were.

Which is why there are hardly any statues of emperors left today, and the history books tell us they were all evil and incompetent.
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  #613  
Old 11.06.2020, 09:48
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

Who decides which statues? Who really cares? A statue is a statue, not to be compared with a human life. If a few too many get removed - mistake, sorry.
Rather a few to many than a few too few.
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  #614  
Old 11.06.2020, 09:54
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Yes, the British Empire made the modern world, end of debate. One can also not emphasise enough the extent to which the British Industrial Revolution changed the course of humanity. This is not something to feel guilty about, this is something to celebrate!
The British Empire probably killed significantly more people over its 200 years than the Germans in the World Wars. Combination of direct military action and even more through other policies - for example the near 30 million Indians that died from starvation in 1877-78 as a direct result of British policy.

The same empire also ultimately lead to such wonders as apartheid.

I would probably agree it was the least bad of the European empires. But that certainly does not make it good. A naked land and resource grab, nothing less.

A little reading here.
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Old 11.06.2020, 10:02
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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The British Empire probably killed significantly more people over its 200 years than the Germans in the World Wars. Combination of direct military action and even more through other policies - for example the near 30 million Indians that died from starvation in 1877-78 as a direct result of British policy.

The same empire also ultimately lead to such wonders as apartheid.

I would probably agree it was the least bad of the European empires. But that certainly does not make it good. A naked land and resource grab, nothing less.

A little reading here.
I thought the austrians had claim to the least bad empire, I know there was bad stuff in the balkans? I'm pretty sure the expanse of the british empire ensures there's more than enough terrible history belonging to it.
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Old 11.06.2020, 10:03
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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The British Empire probably killed significantly more people over its 200 years than the Germans in the World Wars. Combination of direct military action and even more through other policies - for example the near 30 million Indians that died from starvation in 1877-78 as a direct result of British policy.

The same empire also ultimately lead to such wonders as apartheid.

I would probably agree it was the least bad of the European empires. But that certainly does not make it good. A naked land and resource grab, nothing less.

A little reading here.
The English language
British Banking
The Common Law
Team sports
Protestantism
Representative assemblies
The idea of liberty
The Nightwatchman state
English Land tenure

No, it wasn't perfect but it spread ideas and created institutions and countries that are damn sight better than what was there before! And what more of a fitting way for it to end than to have been broken against Nazi Germany.
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Old 11.06.2020, 10:05
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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The idea of liberty
So to give someone the idea of liberty you need to shoot him and nick his country?
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Old 11.06.2020, 10:07
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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The Romans figured this whole thing out thousands of years ago by creating sculptures with detachable heads. When the person being memorialized fell out of favor, they just stuck a new head on there.


https://travellingcam.wordpress.com/...e-of-orange-3/
I love this idea, would really solve the problem in a really constructive and ironic way - lots of scope here.
Reminds me of the Police chief in "Indecent Exposure" by Tom Sharpe who doesn't quite get the heart transplant he had envisaged.
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Old 11.06.2020, 10:12
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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The English language
British Banking
The Common Law
Team sports
Protestantism
Representative assemblies
The idea of liberty
The Nightwatchman state
English Land tenure

No, it wasn't perfect but it spread ideas and created institutions and countries that are damn sight better than what was there before! And what more of a fitting way for it to end than to have been broken against Nazi Germany.
As an Irishman I take issue with a few of these things you're proud of. I think the history people learn really changes the outlook of your nation on the world.
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Old 11.06.2020, 10:18
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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So to give someone the idea of liberty you need to shoot him and nick his country?
As I said, it was not perfect, but the idea of liberty is a very important concept. This allowed and facilitated the peaceful decolonisation of countries already in the late nineteenth century. The British felt they were ruling countries until they were ready to rule themselves, which meant providing good order, education etc. Very patronising when looked at it through our 21st century eyes, however perhaps the best course of action when one compares Commonwealth countries to the colonial countries of the likes of Belgium, France and Italy.

What's most important about the idea of liberty within the British Empire was that when the British were behaving appallingly throughout the world, there was almost always a liberal criticism of that behaviour back in Britain.
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