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Old 15.06.2020, 18:52
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Only that you're completely missing the point.
As are you.

That guns are legal or not is irrelevant in this case.

Asshole steals weapon from cop, and assaults cop with stolen weapon.

How else should it end?

Do you really think that it would be different here?

Tom
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  #742  
Old 15.06.2020, 19:31
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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A society that [...] makes heroes out of killers, real and fictional, will never be a peaceful society.
Wilhelm Tell?
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  #743  
Old 15.06.2020, 19:43
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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A society that glorifies guns and makes heroes out of killers, real and fictional, will never be a peaceful society.
Which society doesn't?

Tom
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  #744  
Old 15.06.2020, 19:51
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

Depending on whom you ask, 20-30% of the US police are former military. Soldiers are trained to kill, this is their job, no questions necessary when they're in a suspcious situation, let alone after the first shot. This is how they stay alive.

Even if it were seen as desirable (I don't think it currently is), someone who served for a couple years in a war zone will take a long time to get these automatisms out of their system.

This needs to change, cops need to be limited to reasonable us of force, coupled with the requirement that all lives need to be spared if reasonable, something similar to what applies in CH and Germany.
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Officer has been sacked. Seems even the police agree he did the wrong thing.
Here's the Wendy's video.

As sad as it is, this one appears to be from the opposite side of the spectrum than Floyd's. The cop who shoots is using the red car as cover, you don't do that if you know the other guy is unarmed.

It would seem reasonable to demand in this case that the cop has to aim for the legs, the car probably provided good enough cover and the light probably was good enough. However this is the US, where people are trained to aim for the chest/upper body.
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Has now been ruled homicide.
Nonsense, there's no way to collect evidence and conduct a fair trial in such a short time.

Last edited by Urs Max; 15.06.2020 at 20:04.
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  #745  
Old 15.06.2020, 20:01
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Depending on whom you ask, 20-30% of the US police are former military. Soldiers are trained to kill, this is their job, no questions necessary when they're in a suspcious situation, let alone after the first shot. This is how they stay alive.

Even if it were seen as desirable (I don't think it currently is), someone who served for a couple years in a war zone will take a long time to get these automatisms out of their system.

This needs to change, cops need to be limited to reasonable us of force, coupled with the requirement that all lives need to be spared if reasonable, something similar to what applies in CH and Germany.

Here's the Wendy's video.

As sad as it is, this one appears to be from the opposite side of the spectrum than Floyd's. The cop who shoots is using the red car as cover, you don't do that if you know the other guy is unarmed.

It would seem reasonable to demand in this case that the cop has to aim for the legs, the car probably provided good enough cover and the light probably was good enough.

Nonsense, there's no way to collect evidence and conduct a fair trial in such a short time.
I just watched the video and it seems very much justified. He got sacked because that police department has no backbone and feared backlash from the media and leftist anarchists. The female police chief also resigned. Another march for yet another criminal, the restaurant has been torched. That's what's wrong with America, the lack of accountability.
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  #746  
Old 15.06.2020, 20:08
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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the restaurant has been torched.
Yeah, that made an awful lot of sense. As if it was Wendy's fault, or the franchisee's if that's their business model.
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  #747  
Old 15.06.2020, 20:19
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Why? The guy was armed!
Honestly? In this case (Brooks) I think the sacking and any criminal charges are because of the political pressure right now. It wasn't great timing to have yet another white cop kill a black man, despite the fact he had just stolen the cop's taser.

It's nothing like the Floyd case at all, but "the people" are out for revenge.

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...To suggest that just because the guy was armed the cop was entitled to shoot him dead is ridiculous, especially given your support for the right to bear arms...
Believe it or not, the laws in the USA are very generous when it comes to a police officer using deadly force. The word "entitled" almost fits. Whether or not you and I like it is another thing, but that's the reality. FC posted a good link up-thread with some Supreme Court history.

I don't think the officer in this case will be found guilty, despite the fact the autopsy shows Brooks died from gunshot wounds to the back. Here's a snippet of Georgia's statute on the use of deadly force:
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...a person is justified in using force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm only if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent death or great bodily injury to himself or herself or a third person or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony...
Brooks had already committed a couple of felonies within just a few minutes: DUI, felony resisting arrest, stealing the weapon of a law enforcement officer, and felony assault by firing the taser at the officer to name a few. He possessed a weapon and was running away with it, and could have used it to commit yet another felony against the officers or by attacking an innocent bystander. As soon as he turned and pointed that taser, he was a dead man. The law above pretty much says it was justified, and the cop was trained to react that way.

I said earlier in the thread I didn't see how a cop could feel in danger if the guy was running away. Having seen the video, Brooks did turn and at least try to fire the taser, therefore I could totally see the defense arguing the officer felt he was in danger and returned fire.

Remember - to be acquitted, the defense only needs to convince ONE juror that the act was justified. That's a super low hurdle in the Brooks case with that video. It's a higher hurdle in the Floyd case.
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  #748  
Old 15.06.2020, 20:20
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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It would seem reasonable to demand in this case that the cop has to aim for the legs, the car probably provided good enough cover and the light probably was good enough. However this is the US, where people are trained to aim for the chest/upper body.
Why do cops not shoot the legs .. This is the humorous version but still just as true ..

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Old 15.06.2020, 20:24
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Why do cops not shoot the legs .. This is the humorous version but still just as true ..

Why couldn't they just have pepper-sprayed his foot instead.

Edit: For anybody who's looking for some informative explanations on justified shootings of unarmed people, the youtuber posted above is Donut Operator. A former cop and an excellent source of unbiased, factual explanations of police shootings.
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  #750  
Old 15.06.2020, 20:53
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

I admit, I do feel a bit 'on the fence' about this particular incident. What I keep finding myself wondering is what protocol is exactly, regarding when a cop can feel that they are being threatened and can therefore feel justified in using their gun. The guy did have a taser and had tried to use it on the cop, and a taser is or can be considered a weapon (it's rare, but some people have died of cardiac arrest from them). And it's not as though a cop can just stop and take a moment to try to rationalize the situation when they are "in the moment" and are forced to make a spontaneous decision and to act spontaneously.

This is a link to the video of when the cop(s) first approached Rayshard Brooks and were talking to him and then gave him the test for being drunk, etc. It cuts out just as Brooks is being handcuffed and begins to suddenly resist arrest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dhdp...&pbjreload=101

What I find really unfortunate is that the cop was obviously being very nice and respectful toward Brooks, and it wasn't until Brooks suddenly (and probably rather unexpectedly) began to resist arrest that things turned ugly. I have a feeling that this cop would not have wanted to have to use his weapon against this man unless he felt he had no choice. So I also find myself wondering what kind of pressure a cop might feel to NOT let someone get away and also to defend a fellow cop? Is doing "the right thing" a gray area sometimes?

I also came across this study, about something called the "weapons effect" that has shown that when someone sees a taser, they often become aggressive and hostile, which in turn leads to police having to use more force.

Carrying Tasers increases police use of force, study finds

"Criminologists from the University of Cambridge say the findings suggest that Tasers can trigger the 'weapons effect': a psychological phenomenon in which sight of a weapon increases aggressive behaviour.
While the 'weapons effect' has been repeatedly demonstrated in simulated conditions over the last forty years, this is one of the largest studies to show it "in the field" and the first to reveal the effect in law enforcement.
"We found that officers are more likely to be assaulted when carrying electroshock weaponry, and more likely to apply force," said lead researcher Dr Barak Ariel from Cambridge's Institute of Criminology.
"It is well established that the visual cue of a weapon can stimulate aggression. The presence of Tasers appears to provoke a pattern where suspects become more aggressive toward officers, who in turn respond more forcefully," he said."
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  #751  
Old 15.06.2020, 21:01
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Why do cops not shoot the legs .. This is the humorous version but still just as true ..
You're asking the wrong person.

Your clip doesn't provide a reason not to go for the legs, if the situation allows. The fact that hitting a leg can be lethal makes no difference to hitting the torso. And the bleeding can probably be reduced once you can approach the injured, which would remove the immediate danger to the injured's life.

Someone running towards or from you will present the upper legs as two mostly static colums that are close together. In the Brooks case the upper legs probably formed a similarly large target as the thorax, and the distance is mostly "can't miss".
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Old 16.06.2020, 06:23
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

What gets me is that no member of the public went to Brooks to see what was wrong with him -shit, he is holding up the fast food queue -this is a serious problem.
So they delegate the job to the police...............
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  #753  
Old 16.06.2020, 06:46
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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What gets me is that no member of the public went to Brooks to see what was wrong with him -shit, he is holding up the fast food queue -this is a serious problem.
So they delegate the job to the police...............
I occasionally watch the TV show "live PD" on the A&E channel..
It seems to be a fairly common call out for the cops over there, people passed out in their vehicle..

And if that TV show is anything like the reality of life in the USofA .. I sure wouldn't like to be a cop there.
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  #754  
Old 16.06.2020, 07:44
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Only that you're completely missing the point. The cop decided to avoid any further conflict by killing the guy. You seem to think it's OK.
The cop was professional and patient throughout. The conflict started when the man violently resisted arrest and it escalated when he stole a police weapon and tried to use it on them.
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Old 16.06.2020, 08:02
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

Most Tasers are single shot. There are some dual shot versions used by law enforcement.
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Old 16.06.2020, 08:24
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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The cop was professional and patient throughout. The conflict started when the man violently resisted arrest and it escalated when he stole a police weapon and tried to use it on them.
They shot him 3 times in the back! He was running away and no threat to them
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Old 16.06.2020, 08:25
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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I occasionally watch the TV show "live PD" on the A&E channel..
It seems to be a fairly common call out for the cops over there, people passed out in their vehicle..

And if that TV show is anything like the reality of life in the USofA .. I sure wouldn't like to be a cop there.
You mean lacking the training, resources, funding, salary, support, clear guidelines, societal prestige, leadership and backup? Yeah. All these incidents point to cops being on their own there..Not a situation anyone would want to find himself in.
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Old 16.06.2020, 08:29
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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You mean lacking the training, resources, funding, salary, support, clear guidelines, societal prestige, leadership and backup? Yeah. All these incidents point to cops being on their own there..Not a situation anyone would want to find himself in.
And CNN flashes this video of him and George Floyd getting shot with every news program. They have absolutely no respect!
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  #759  
Old 16.06.2020, 09:52
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Only that you're completely missing the point. The cop decided to avoid any further conflict by killing the guy. You seem to think it's OK.

It's the fact that you, and presumably many other Americans, think that lethal violence can be acceptable, that exemplifies the problem, and indeed the old 3rd amendment (or is it the second) makes it more or less built-in to the constitution.

A society that glorifies guns and makes heroes out of killers, real and fictional, will never be a peaceful society.
100% this, nailed it. Glad to see there's at least one sensible mod on here.
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Old 16.06.2020, 10:19
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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It's the fact that you, and presumably many other Americans...
I'm not American, how racist of you to presume that I am.

Tom
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