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  #781  
Old 17.06.2020, 01:41
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Never have had a cop in the US point a machine gun at me.

Switzerland and Italy, many times. France too.

Tom
That's interesting. And very surprising, to me. Not that no cop ever pointed a gun at you in the US. But that you've experience that in Switzerland, Italy and France, and many times.

What were the circumstances? Do you know why it happened? And do you think you were, potentially, in mortal danger?

I've only ever experienced police guns pointing at me outside of Europe.

Once was a police search at a roadblock, where they were working intensively to round up people critical of the government, and someone in our group seemed nervous or suspicious, and then suddenly the police guns were pointing. That was very scary because we knew that the person did, indeed, fulfil the search criteria, but was not taken, after all, and we could leave, very shaken. Had to get off the highway and off the motorbikes at the next possible opportunity, when we all discovered that our legs had turned to jelly.

The other was many years later, in a completely different but very dodgy place, so much so that, at the time, we weren't sure whether those pointing the several guns at us, and dressed in uniforms, were really police or not. We were terrified, and hugely outnumbered. But after looking at our papers and inside the car, they let us proceed unharmed, and wished us a safe journey. Later, we found out that there'd recently been a murder and so the police were checking everyone, looking for suspects.

In both cases, we were not afraid of being shot and wounded or killed, but of being forcefully taken away, to an uncertain future.
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  #782  
Old 17.06.2020, 10:07
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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What were the circumstances?
Police check of all vehicles passing.

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Do you know why it happened?
Probably someone knocked over a Post Office.

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do you think you were, potentially, in mortal danger?
No, it's normal around here, probably happens at least once a year. First hairpin going up the Ceneri is one of the usual spots.

Actually, I prefer it if they are pointing a gun at me, it means that they aren't controlling me for a traffic violation!

Tom

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  #783  
Old 17.06.2020, 11:32
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Police check of all vehicles passing.
OK. So what we're talking about here is armed police standing around with guns slung over their shoulder vaguely pointing in your general direction. Not _quite_ the image conjured up by your earlier statement, and yes, I've also experienced that at roadblocks once or twice in CH, but never elsewhere (edit: I suppose it's quite common at border posts, now I think about it) . But not what I'd call "pointing a machine gun at me", certainly never someone with a drawn sidearm ordering me out of the car or whatever, which is the sort of situation we're talking about here.
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  #784  
Old 17.06.2020, 11:54
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Play stupid games, win stupid prices. It's really simple.

The guy shot in Atlanta was out on parole for multiple stuff. He was piss-ass drunk and fell asleep behind the wheel. No matter how you'd like to spin this, he wasn't going to go down quietly, because that would have been a parole violation. But yeah, blue men bad - blue men racist.
'sleeping in his car while black'
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  #785  
Old 17.06.2020, 12:00
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Play stupid games, win stupid prices. It's really simple.

The guy shot in Atlanta was out on parole for multiple stuff. He was piss-ass drunk and fell asleep behind the wheel. No matter how you'd like to spin this, he wasn't going to go down quietly, because that would have been a parole violation. But yeah, blue men bad - blue men racist.
Perhaps the problem is the parole rules. Had there been some leniency in the system people wouldn't fear a police encounter so much. Especially when impaired.

Social workers should have been called out to this incident, not the police - they have better things to do.
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  #786  
Old 17.06.2020, 13:05
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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100% this, nailed it. Glad to see there's at least one sensible mod on here.
What does being a mod have to do with anything here? I know the U.S. system very well and have been trying to respond to questions about how something like these cases can happen, and why police are rarely prosecuted. It doesn't mean I blame the victims or that I think all cops are good or bad.

The first step to any reform is to understand the system as it exists now.
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  #787  
Old 17.06.2020, 13:17
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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OK. So what we're talking about here is armed police standing around with guns slung over their shoulder vaguely pointing in your general direction.
No.

Two cops, one with the gun in his hands, pointing, while the other asks questions and looks in the vehicle.

Tom
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Old 17.06.2020, 13:22
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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What does being a mod have to do with anything here? I know the U.S. system very well and have been trying to respond to questions about how something like these cases can happen, and why police are rarely prosecuted. It doesn't mean I blame the victims or that I think all cops are good or bad.

The first step to any reform is to understand the system as it exists now.
I said at least one - I hadn't formed an opinion on you yet as we've had very few dealings. I'm sure you are great really.
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  #789  
Old 17.06.2020, 14:13
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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OK. So what we're talking about here is armed police standing around with guns slung over their shoulder vaguely pointing in your general direction. Not _quite_ the image conjured up by your earlier statement, and yes, I've also experienced that at roadblocks once or twice in CH, but never elsewhere (edit: I suppose it's quite common at border posts, now I think about it) . But not what I'd call "pointing a machine gun at me", certainly never someone with a drawn sidearm ordering me out of the car or whatever, which is the sort of situation we're talking about here.
Friend of mine in Spain works in an office that is just across the road from a big government building. There are always two soldiers on sentry duty at the door of the building, with sub-machine guns on straps over their shoulders. These are not losely and non-chalantly slung over their shoulders as the police or border guards might do, but in horizontal position and with their hands on the muzzles, thus pointing directly at people who are passing by. It's not a very busy street so walking past there can make it feel very personal.

But after a while you grow used to it and even wave or say hi.
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Old 17.06.2020, 15:22
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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thus pointing directly at people who are passing by. It's not a very busy street so walking past there can make it feel very personal.
I am sure they would be reprimanded for this, the guns should be pointed downwards in front of them, not at random passers-by. Like the Spanish Guard in front of a govt building below.

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  #791  
Old 17.06.2020, 18:15
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

Interesting numbers I just found, what kills police officers in the USA?

147 officers died related to line of duty events: gunfire, car crashes, hear attacks, etc. 50 of the them died in gunfire events https://www.odmp.org/search/year/2019 228 suicides were reported on 2019 among active and retired police officers. https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/n...al/2799876001/

Of course, the suicide stats comprise a larger population that includes retired police officers. Anyway, it is interesting to quantify the risks. Suicide seems to be a larger risk than gunfire while on duty.
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  #792  
Old 17.06.2020, 18:38
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

Please ...., please let’s not go into US gun debate. Again.

Guns are bad things, they kill people. ‘Nuff said.
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  #793  
Old 17.06.2020, 19:04
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Perhaps the problem is the parole rules. Had there been some leniency in the system people wouldn't fear a police encounter so much. Especially when impaired.

Social workers should have been called out to this incident, not the police - they have better things to do.
Perhaps the problem lies with the shootee's criminal record and behavioral issues. The system was lenient enough by letting him out early. The following charges were from 2013:
Criminal interference of government property
Obstructing of LEO
Theft by recovery stolen property
Cruelty to children
Fales Imprisonment
Family violence
Battery
Simple battery

He received 7 years but got released in 2014.

Source: DOC (Georgia)
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  #794  
Old 17.06.2020, 19:11
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Perhaps the problem lies with the shootee's criminal record and behavioral issues.
Perhaps you could stop trying to defend the indefensible? The cop _should_ have been able to avoid lethal force - whether through poor training or for whatever other reason he was unable to do so. The background of the dead man is completely irrelevant, unless you're trying to suggest that hardened criminals deserve to be shot dead by police?
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  #795  
Old 17.06.2020, 19:15
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

But that is no excuse for the so called LEO to shoot him in the back while he was running away.

I remember from all the Westerns I saw while growing up that shooting a man in the back was cowardly.
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  #796  
Old 17.06.2020, 19:39
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Perhaps the problem lies with the shootee's criminal record and behavioral issues. The system was lenient enough by letting him out early. The following charges were from 2013:
Criminal interference of government property
Obstructing of LEO
Theft by recovery stolen property
Cruelty to children
Fales Imprisonment
Family violence
Battery
Simple battery

He received 7 years but got released in 2014.

Source: DOC (Georgia)
If you're talking about the Atlanta incident, the whole interaction lasted 40+ minutes. The drunk guy was cooperating (compliant), then the police officers became complacent. When they wanted to handcuff him, he took them by surprise, got a taser from one of them triggering their panic reaction (shooting him). If the 2 police officers had made the detainee had his feet apart, hands to head, make him knee, or face to ground for handcuffing.....the outcome may be have been different.

But, too soon to judge. This question will be made during a trial and competent people will give their opinion: police academy instructors.

PS: the one time I got arrested, I was pushed to a car (no escape route), feet apart (no balance), hands on head (longer reaction time). One police officer put the handcuffs while the other pushed me against the car. Beautiful team job to arrest a troublesome drunk.
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  #797  
Old 17.06.2020, 20:00
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Perhaps you could stop trying to defend the indefensible? The cop _should_ have been able to avoid lethal force - whether through poor training or for whatever other reason he was unable to do so. The background of the dead man is completely irrelevant, unless you're trying to suggest that hardened criminals deserve to be shot dead by police?
Perhaps you ought to educate yourself on the topic before suggesting that I'm trying to defend the undefensible. The man was out on parole. This would have put him back in jail for the long run. There was no way he was going to cooperate. Hence he attacked the officers, stole a taser and deployed said taser at an officer. What were the officers supposed to do, pepper spray his left foot?
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  #798  
Old 17.06.2020, 20:41
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Perhaps you ought to educate yourself on the topic before suggesting that I'm trying to defend the undefensible. The man was out on parole. This would have put him back in jail for the long run. There was no way he was going to cooperate. Hence he attacked the officers, stole a taser and deployed said taser at an officer. What were the officers supposed to do, pepper spray his left foot?
Why not just let him run away? They knew who he was, they could drop by the next morning to read him his rights. At most the taser he had one charge left, and it’s considered non-lethal at least by white cops.
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Old 17.06.2020, 20:55
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Why not just let him run away? They knew who he was, they could drop by the next morning to read him his rights. At most the taser he had one charge left, and it’s considered non-lethal at least by white cops.
Because he poses a direct danger to himself and society. Also, even though the one charge was deployed, you can still use the taser upclose and personal. . .very romantic, I know. You don't let criminals run, especially not after said violent criminal has nothing to lose and is intoxicated.
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Old 17.06.2020, 21:03
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Because he poses a direct danger to himself and society. Also, even though the one charge was deployed, you can still use the taser upclose and personal. . .very romantic, I know. You don't let criminals run, especially not after said violent criminal has nothing to lose and is intoxicated.
Well given the circumstances you would likely have had one less dead person.

I think the whole idea that ‘You don’t ‘let criminals run’ needs some further thought. And shooting him in the back, until he was dead, is much worse than any danger he was to himself.
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