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  #881  
Old 25.08.2020, 15:21
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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One of the contributing factors to the US's policing issue is the militarisation of the police. Your guard duty experiences are all very well, but the police are not the military; they're supposed to be protecting the community, not fighting a war against it.
Ok, police and military work in different fields agreed.
I still think, its comparable in this context.

Rules of Engagement are almost the same for police officers and soldiers in non war times. Therefore training is similar. A cop should draw his weapon only to defend his or someone elses life.
(I agree with your previous post that they draw their weapons maybe too much.)
And if you must shoot under these conditions, a bullet to the legs will probably either miss or have not enough stopping power.
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  #882  
Old 25.08.2020, 16:18
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Better training is needed then. Obviously.

The victim likely realised what would happen if he submitted. He would be arrested, thrown in gaol, taken before a (likely white) judge, given a bail he would never be able to pay and would stay confined for months loosing his job, his home. He’d be offered a plea bargain which if accepted would mean more time behind bars, if he declined he would go to court represented by an inexperienced and overworked lawyer, be convicted and sent for even more time.

His crime? Trying to stop a fight and ignoring a man with a gun.

Did he even have a chance, or a choice?
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Ok, police and military work in different fields agreed.
I still think, its comparable in this context.

Rules of Engagement are almost the same for police officers and soldiers in non war times. Therefore training is similar. A cop should draw his weapon only to defend his or someone elses life.
(I agree with your previous post that they draw their weapons maybe too much.)
And if you must shoot under these conditions, a bullet to the legs will probably either miss or have not enough stopping power.
The guy got shot seven times in his back. There were no rules of engagement or careful considerations - the two cops clearly panicked. We could argue forever if the situation warrants a shot, I don’t think it does. But it certainly doesn’t warrant seven bullets to the body. It’s pretty difficult to come up with a scenario where that’s ever ok. Yes, cops have difficult jobs, particularly in countries where guns are easy to get. But that doesn’t mean that they can shoot down people just because they might have potentially grabbed a gun. No matter if there was a warrant or whatever else. If anything should they be trained even better than their European counterparts... which they are not. A police training takes three years in Germany and six months in the US (unless you are a sheriff’s deputy... which can be done immediately...).
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  #883  
Old 25.08.2020, 16:27
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

'The police should've desculated the situation' 'the police should've let him escape and dealt with him later' 'the police should've shot him in the foot' 'the police should have better training' 'the police should have...'

How about holding these black criminals responsible for committing crimes and then resisting arrest?

I don't understand this privileged mentality where people can commit crimes, resist arrest/attack the police and then complain about the severity of the response.
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  #884  
Old 25.08.2020, 16:40
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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'The police should've desculated the situation' 'the police should've let him escape and dealt with him later' 'the police should've shot him in the foot' 'the police should have better training' 'the police should have...'

How about holding these black criminals responsible for committing crimes and then resisting arrest?

I don't understand this privileged mentality where people can commit crimes, resist arrest/attack the police and then complain about the severity of the response.
Why the emphasis on his colour? Should the police not hold him responsible if he's white???

Simply put, Police officers are neither judges nor executioners. It's just not their job to punish in any way.
As Treverus previously wrote, US officers should be trained best, they really have it much harder then those in western europe, in regards of danger to health.

No crime, commited or not, justifies 7 shots in the back.
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  #885  
Old 25.08.2020, 16:59
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Why the emphasis on his colour? Should the police not hold him responsible if he's white???
I think we all know the reason.
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  #886  
Old 25.08.2020, 17:10
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Why the emphasis on his colour? Should the police not hold him responsible if he's white???
Because if he was white everyone would simply say he was a violent criminal (with a history of firearm offences) with an outstanding arrest warrant who was disobeying direct police orders whilst appearing to reach into his vehicle. Case closed.

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No crime, commited or not, justifies 7 shots in the back.
Really? So even if he'd pulled out a gun and started shooting at the police then 7 shots wouldn't be justified?
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Old 25.08.2020, 17:15
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'The police should've desculated the situation' 'the police should've let him escape and dealt with him later' 'the police should've shot him in the foot' 'the police should have better training' 'the police should have...'

How about holding these black criminals responsible for committing crimes and then resisting arrest?

I don't understand this privileged mentality where people can commit crimes, resist arrest/attack the police and then complain about the severity of the response.
So you think its acceptable for police to gun down unarmed suspects? You'd have to be absolutely off your rocker to believe that.

Whether they'd have acted the same if he'd been white is moot, although it's possible it wouldn't have made the headlines, but in no case can I think that 7 bullets in the back can ever possibly be justified.

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Because if he was white everyone would simply say he was a violent criminal (with a history of firearm offences) with an outstanding arrest warrant who was disobeying direct police orders whilst appearing to reach into his vehicle. Case closed.
Yes, right, because 'disobeying direct police orders' is a crime punishable by instant shooting without trial, and perfectly justified, yes?

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Really? So even if he'd pulled out a gun and started shooting at the police then 7 shots wouldn't be justified?
Err, what has that got to do with anything? It's a completely different, completely fictitious, scenario with no relevance whatsoever.
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Old 25.08.2020, 17:27
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Because if he was white everyone would simply say he was a violent criminal (with a history of firearm offences) with an outstanding arrest warrant who was disobeying direct police orders whilst appearing to reach into his vehicle. Case closed.


Really? So even if he'd pulled out a gun and started shooting at the police then 7 shots wouldn't be justified?
I still don't get why you wrote black.
You imply that a white person would habe been shot as well but nobody would make a fuss? Yeah might be, so what?


First, that wouldn't be shots in the back then. Second, completely different situation.
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  #889  
Old 25.08.2020, 17:45
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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'The police should've desculated the situation' 'the police should've let him escape and dealt with him later' 'the police should've shot him in the foot' 'the police should have better training' 'the police should have...'

How about holding these black criminals responsible for committing crimes and then resisting arrest?

I don't understand this privileged mentality where people can commit crimes, resist arrest/attack the police and then complain about the severity of the response.
As far as we know, he had not committed a crime in this instance. We don't know that he attacked the police. I would say he resisted arrest in that he was probably getting in his car to drive away.

Based on info from Wisconsin's courts website, he did not have any convictions, just an arrest warrant out for an alleged crime. It's a bit much to paint him as a hardened criminal when he's not been tried or convicted of anything yet. A violent criminal with a history of firearm offenses? Really??

I can tell you he didn't deserve 7 bullets in his back, regardless of any history.
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  #890  
Old 25.08.2020, 17:45
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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So you think its acceptable for police to gun down unarmed suspects? You'd have to be absolutely off your rocker to believe that.
If the suspect has a violent history, previous firearms offences and now appears to be reaching for a weapon, yes.

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Yes, right, because 'disobeying direct police orders' is a crime punishable by instant shooting without trial, and perfectly justified, yes?
After fighting police, resisting arrest, disobeying police orders and appearing to be reaching for a weapon, yes.
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  #891  
Old 25.08.2020, 17:48
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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As far as we know, he had not committed a crime in this instance. We don't know that he attacked the police. I would say he resisted arrest in that he was probably getting in his car to drive away.
Resisting arrest is a crime
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  #892  
Old 25.08.2020, 17:50
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Resisting arrest is a crime
Of which you must be tried and convicted before you can be shot.
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  #893  
Old 25.08.2020, 17:52
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Of which you must be tried and convicted before you can be shot.
You can? I thought you cannot. Isn't that the problem?

Looks like investments in US police force are long overdue.
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  #894  
Old 25.08.2020, 18:00
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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You can? I thought you cannot. Isn't that the problem?

Looks like investments in US police force are long overdue.
I'd say resisting arrest is something you get the death sentence for. Not even in Texas
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Old 25.08.2020, 18:01
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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You can? I thought you cannot. Isn't that the problem?

Looks like investments in US police force are long overdue.
I was kidding (partly). Full_Circle seems to think that because resisting arrest is a crime, it was okay for the police to shoot the guy, you know - because he's black and resisting he's obviously guilty of something so it's fiiiiiine.

And yes, the U.S. needs to take a serious look at its training, funding, etc. for police.
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  #896  
Old 25.08.2020, 18:12
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

I take it he's actually saying that all this wrath now happening that society sees as justified is wearing police force reactivity very thin. US needs calm, on all fronts. Understaffed, underpaid, undertrained, undermined and undereducated policeforce in stress will blow up. And they do.
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  #897  
Old 25.08.2020, 18:17
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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I was kidding (partly). Full_Circle seems to think that because resisting arrest is a crime, it was okay for the police to shoot the guy, you know - because he's black and resisting he's obviously guilty of something so it's fiiiiiine.
I can somehow relate to that. Without the black/white part and the excessive force, ofc.
But it is kinda like this "selber schuld" mentality we swiss supposedly have.

I can't imagine how anyone could move in the US while a officer points a gun at you.
Everytime, really everytime, I told someone here in switzerland that I am going to drive around the US for a month told me to move slowly and keep my hands visible when stopped by the police.

But If I walked a mile in that black mans shoes (sorry I don't know his name and he was refered to as black man before), i'd maybe understand.
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Old 25.08.2020, 18:38
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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I was kidding (partly). Full_Circle seems to think that because resisting arrest is a crime, it was okay for the police to shoot the guy, you know - because he's black and resisting he's obviously guilty of something so it's fiiiiiine.
If it turns out there was a gun in the front seat he was reaching for would the shooting then be justified?
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Old 25.08.2020, 18:47
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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If it turns out there was a gun in the front seat he was reaching for would the shooting then be justified?
I would still argue no, but others would argue yes. His back was to them, so unless he fired a gun through his own body, they were not in danger.

Police should only discharge a firearm if there's imminent danger/threat of loss of life of themselves or others. Given that there were three children in the car and the cop still had his hand on the guy's shirt, I would argue that discharging their weapons did not protect anyone and instead actually put children at risk.

There are other ways to take down a suspect that don't involve shooting.
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Old 25.08.2020, 18:54
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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I would still argue no, but others would argue yes. His back was to them, so unless he fired a gun through his own body, they were not in danger.

Police should only discharge a firearm if there's imminent danger/threat of loss of life of themselves or others.
Given that there were three children in the car and the cop still had his hand on the guy's shirt, I would argue that discharging their weapons did not protect anyone and instead actually put children at risk.

There are other ways to take down a suspect that don't involve shooting.
It takes a second or two to turn around and pull a trigger. By then you're probably not in danger, you're probably dead.
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