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  #1081  
Old 17.09.2020, 14:53
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Deescalate as much as possible --> apprehend --> arrest. Defend yourself and others according to the threat, using the available tools and strategies learned. Thats, imho, their job in those situations.
Right, but when a violent criminal resists arrest and puts a police officer's life in potential danger then they have escalated the situation and they often get shot - as is the case for many BLM 'victims'.
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  #1082  
Old 17.09.2020, 15:04
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Right, but when a violent criminal resists arrest and puts a police officer's life in potential danger then they have escalated the situation and they often get shot - as is the case for many BLM 'victims'.
I agree, but here comes the importan point:

The process you describe above of resisting arrest, posing a mortal threat and ultimately gettin shot is independent from the criminal record.

I agree that officer should take criminal records into account for their risk assesment, but, apart from that it mustn't be used to legitimate shooting someone.
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  #1083  
Old 17.09.2020, 16:29
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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I agree, but here comes the importan point:

The process you describe above of resisting arrest, posing a mortal threat and ultimately gettin shot is independent from the criminal record.

I agree that officer should take criminal records into account for their risk assesment, but, apart from that it mustn't be used to legitimate shooting someone.
I never meant to imply otherwise.
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Old 17.09.2020, 17:40
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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I never meant to imply otherwise.
Yes.

Of course in virtually any country of the world, there will be a different procedure for reminding granny about bringing back that library book, and stopping a person with a known criminal record and history of violence. In virtually any country of the world, the latter procedure will be considerably more heavy handed than the former and thus by consequence the risk of somebody getting hurt or even killed will be greater. This does not mean that the police set out to shoot or kill, but this may just happen as a situation escalates. It is dictated by the circumstances. Any person who chooses to go down the path of becoming a crook knows this will increase the risk of unpleasant encounters with the police. This is not at all the same as saying that all crooks should be shot on sight.

This should be bleedingly obvious. Only people with cynical and malicious intent would seek to deny or confuse it for political gain.
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  #1085  
Old 18.09.2020, 11:51
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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I never meant to imply otherwise.
I am really glad to read that.
There were some posts of you which led me to infer otherwise. I'll post them if you like, otherwise we can let it go.

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Yes.

Of course in virtually any country of the world, there will be a different procedure for reminding granny about bringing back that library book, and stopping a person with a known criminal record and history of violence. In virtually any country of the world, the latter procedure will be considerably more heavy handed than the former and thus by consequence the risk of somebody getting hurt or even killed will be greater. This does not mean that the police set out to shoot or kill, but this may just happen as a situation escalates. It is dictated by the circumstances. Any person who chooses to go down the path of becoming a crook knows this will increase the risk of unpleasant encounters with the police. This is not at all the same as saying that all crooks should be shot on sight.
Completely agree. We could discuss however, how many crooks really made the conscious decision to go down that path.
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Old 18.09.2020, 12:21
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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I am really glad to read that.
There were some posts of you which led me to infer otherwise. I'll post them if you like, otherwise we can let it go.
Please do, I'll be happy to explain if I can.

If it helps, I am happy to reiterate what I meant:

- Most BLM victims are violent criminals

- Violent criminals are the only people who are being systematically killed (ie by design) by the police.
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Old 18.09.2020, 13:09
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Please do, I'll be happy to explain if I can.

If it helps, I am happy to reiterate what I meant:

- Most BLM victims are violent criminals

- Violent criminals are the only people who are being systematically killed (ie by design) by the police.
Neither of those statements are factually correct.

Please provide some proof ...
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Old 18.09.2020, 14:37
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Deescalate as much as possible --> apprehend --> arrest. Defend yourself and others according to the threat, using the available tools and strategies learned. Thats, imho, their job in those situations.
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I agree, but here comes the importan point:

The process you describe above of resisting arrest, posing a mortal threat and ultimately gettin shot is independent from the criminal record.

I agree that officer should take criminal records into account for their risk assesment, but, apart from that it mustn't be used to legitimate shooting someone.
The problem with your reasoning is that you're arguing from what appears to be a western European approach where de-escalation is the primary means, and only after that failed (where possible in the first place) is minimal necessary force allowed.

However this is about the US. De-escalation is trained as a one rather unimportant option, if at all, and plausible belief (as opposed to proof) gives reason to use lethal force even where the suspect poses no immediate danger or threat. The concept of "minimal force necessary" is an entirely alien thought.

You could argue that a change of doctrine is needed, and I'd agree (perhaps even FC would?), but that's neither here nor there in a discussion (between FC and you) that's about the present and recent past. You can't really blame police for the legal framework they operate in, nor for acting it out - in fact it's exactly the opposite, *not* acting it out would by definition be outside of the legal framework and therefore grounds for legal prosecution and blame.

The problem with a change of doctrine though is the societal context - the US are much more violent than western Europe, and with a gun available to about one in three grownups I'm not sure such change is even implementable without placing LEO's in harm's way.
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