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  #1161  
Old 27.04.2021, 17:43
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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As for the question itself:
laws, regulations, instructions, schooling and training are entirely different here than there. For instance, try to find a few official demands (legal, regulatory, etc) that have police in the US protect the citizenry. Just as an example, the states I've checked (CA, TX, NY, plus a few) leave the population out of police oath, they only swear to protect the constitution and uphold the law. Bonus points if you find one that prioritises someone's life above arresting a suspect.
I'd prefer a beer or two over the points but there you go: MPD Policy : Purpose (5-301) Sanctity of life and the protection of the public. More exhibits from the trial https://www.mncourts.gov/mncourtsgov...1528282020.pdf
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  #1162  
Old 27.04.2021, 19:34
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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the states I've checked (CA, TX, NY, plus a few) leave the population out of police oath, they only swear to protect the constitution and uphold the law.
I wasn't aware of this but if true, it is rather problematic.

AFAIK policemen here swear to keep the peace, not uphold the law. This is something entirely different. Upholding the law is the job of courts and judges. The law is a highly complex thing and policemen are not trained or qualified to uphold it in all its details and nuances.

To freely paraphrase Terry Pratchett. When two neighbours get at one another's throats because they disagree over the correct position of the fence between their gardens, it is the job of the police to deescalate and make them stand down. That done, the policeman's job is over and the policemen should do no more. If the neighbours still want to continue the dispute, it's a surveyor or a lawyer they need to be calling.
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  #1163  
Old 27.04.2021, 20:01
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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An answer to that question was found on 2020: mechanical asphixiation.
Opioid overdose can cause asphyxiation as well.

The prosecution didn't offer Floyd's drug dealer immunity for his testimony, as seems to be common. Why? Aren't they supposed to go for the truth, rather than succumbing to the mob getting a guilty verdict asap?

Whose knee was on Floyd's neck when he complained for the first time "I can't breathe"? At that time he was sitting upright in the police car.
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Old 27.04.2021, 20:49
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Opioid overdose can cause asphyxiation as well.

The prosecution didn't offer Floyd's drug dealer immunity for his testimony, as seems to be common. Why? Aren't they supposed to go for the truth, rather than succumbing to the mob getting a guilty verdict asap?

Whose knee was on Floyd's neck when he complained for the first time "I can't breathe"? At that time he was sitting upright in the police car.
After he complained for the first time "I can't breathe" kneeling on his neck and back is an unusual first aid recovery position.
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  #1165  
Old 27.04.2021, 21:23
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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I wasn't aware of this but if true, it is rather problematic.
Easy to falsify if it's generally false.

I think it's the root of the problem, however I think it's created one of class-ism rather than race-ism - a good attorney is your "get out of jail" card for blacks and whites alike. The almost complete absence of social mobility perpetuates it among the same groups (the reliance on degrees coupled with expensive colleges and unis are central in this). But that's probably impossible to even start a public discourse about in the current climate in the US, you mustn't contradict or even criticize the woke orthodoxy.
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AFAIK policemen here swear to keep the peace, not uphold the law. This is something entirely different. Upholding the law is the job of courts and judges. The law is a highly complex thing and policemen are not trained or qualified to uphold it in all its details and nuances.
The oath varies by Canton, but they're only symbolic anyway.
It starts with §10.1 of the federal constitution:
"Every person has the right to life. The death penalty is prohibited."
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To freely paraphrase Terry Pratchett. When two neighbours get at one another's throats because they disagree over the correct position of the fence between their gardens, it is the job of the police to deescalate and make them stand down. That done, the policeman's job is over and the policemen should do no more. If the neighbours still want to continue the dispute, it's a surveyor or a lawyer they need to be calling.
Pretty much this.

Another issue is that the police are called for stuff they shouldn't be burdened with in the first place, see Susie-Q's reddit link. The cost/benefit ratio of arresting someone for $20 is deeply negative. Seems a simple citation would be much more appropriate, but maybe that's tricky without a register of the residents. Either way, different actors should handle situations like this, some medically or psychologically trained team. Perhaps with police escort, but if so only for backup.

On the other hand, shitbags like Portland Mayor Ted Wheeler deserve to be fully prosecuted as well. He, and the likes of him, has enabled and is IMO indirectly responsible for dozens of deaths, another thing that must not be mentioned because it's against the orthodoxy.

Last edited by Urs Max; 27.04.2021 at 21:39.
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  #1166  
Old 27.04.2021, 21:59
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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I'd prefer a beer or two over the points but there you go: MPD Policy : Purpose (5-301) Sanctity of life and the protection of the public. More exhibits from the trial https://www.mncourts.gov/mncourtsgov...1528282020.pdf
"action XYZ is necessary to protect the public" isn't the same as "your job is to protect the public". Where does it say that officers have to protect the public, or similar? Not just as a byproduct of some other action but a direct and explicit order? I didn't find such, you seem to merely be quoting the headline.

How can Minneapolis police let George Floyd Square "autonomous zone" exist even though the local population "pleads for help as crime spikes"? Of course that's far from the only city with immense problems triggered by the BLM riots.
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  #1167  
Old 27.04.2021, 23:15
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Opioid overdose can cause asphyxiation as well.

The prosecution didn't offer Floyd's drug dealer immunity for his testimony, as seems to be common. Why? Aren't they supposed to go for the truth, rather than succumbing to the mob getting a guilty verdict asap?

Whose knee was on Floyd's neck when he complained for the first time "I can't breathe"? At that time he was sitting upright in the police car.
Three doctors wrote mechanical asphyxiation. Maybe it's a mob lynching someone, maybe they're right. Anyway, the experts consulted agreed in the mechanical part of asphyxiation meaning the lack of oxygen was caused by pressure applied to arteries and breathing muscles.

Also, there is no truth. There are two opposing forces: prosecution and defense. They both push as strong as they can and hopefully the outcome is justice.
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  #1168  
Old 27.04.2021, 23:50
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Opioid overdose can cause asphyxiation as well.

The prosecution didn't offer Floyd's drug dealer immunity for his testimony, as seems to be common. Why? Aren't they supposed to go for the truth, rather than succumbing to the mob getting a guilty verdict asap?

Whose knee was on Floyd's neck when he complained for the first time "I can't breathe"? At that time he was sitting upright in the police car.
It'd be a hell of a coincidence that opioid induced asphyxiation happened just as he was being arrested.

Theres a lot of expert testimony that that the knee on neck action is extremely dangerous - even if the person is in good health. Especially for so long.

FWIW I think there's no reasonable doubt.

That said, Minnesota has weird laws - "second degree unintentional murder". Most places view the last two words as mutually exclusive. I think crimes like this which are dangerous and caused death but where it's clear that death wasn't intended should go down under manslaughter. In the uk this wouldn't have been a murder trial - pretty sure it wouldn't in most us states either and that intent is required for any degree of murder.

That all said and done he will probably go down for 10-15 years which is about right. He's a killer, but not really a murderer.

Last edited by HickvonFrick; 28.04.2021 at 00:06.
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  #1169  
Old 28.04.2021, 07:22
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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That all said and done he will probably go down for 10-15 years which is about right. He's a killer, but not really a murderer.
My thoughts exactly.

Tom
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  #1170  
Old 28.04.2021, 10:51
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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It'd be a hell of a coincidence that opioid induced asphyxiation happened just as he was being arrested.
In Germany a guy was stabbed in the heart and died shortly after, but it wasn't murder because the cause of death was an unrelated heart failure that happened to occur at the precise same moment. Ask Marton if you don't believe me.
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Old 28.04.2021, 10:56
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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That all said and done he will probably go down for 10-15 years which is about right. He's a killer, but not really a murderer.
If he gets 10 years you can bet that the riots will start again.

I expect that they will give him more, both to appease the BLM crowd and restore peace, and to divert from the underlying problems, such as issues of police training. In other words, they will do what it takes so everything can continue as it was.
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  #1172  
Old 28.04.2021, 18:08
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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After he complained for the first time "I can't breathe" kneeling on his neck and back is an unusual first aid recovery position.
There's not much credibility to such a statement when it's followed by active resistance.
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It'd be a hell of a coincidence that opioid induced asphyxiation happened just as he was being arrested.
What coincidence?
Floyd was high on fentanyl (plus something else I don't recall). The medical examiner testified under oath that, if Floyd had bee found dead in his home, he'd have declared him an overdose death.
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Theres a lot of expert testimony that that the knee on neck action is extremely dangerous - even if the person is in good health. Especially for so long.
The position is exactly how they had been instructed and the policy in place when Floyd died. See page 17 of this court filing by the defense.
Not sure about the timing, but Chauvin shifted the knee to the shoulder/-blade at some later point, as shown by the other's bodycam footage.
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  #1173  
Old 28.04.2021, 18:12
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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In Germany a guy was stabbed in the heart and died shortly after, but it wasn't murder because the cause of death was an unrelated heart failure that happened to occur at the precise same moment. Ask Marton if you don't believe me.
I have been elevated to the EF Oracle. Speak my name with awe.
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Old 28.04.2021, 18:13
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

Chauvin didn't choose the best lawyers, he could have shopped around a bit..



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I have been elevated to the EF Oracle. Speak my name with awe.

Don't fool yourself, your opinions are disturbing. lol


I mean they obviously disturb.
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Old 28.04.2021, 19:03
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

Urs Max, I really think you are letting your judgement be clouded by your hatred for the far left and BLM movement. I understand, our emotions are powerful ... but please try and step away from them & see the crime for what it was.

I do not think George was killed because he was black ... there is a serious issue with bad cops in my country. There is also a serious problem with racism in my country, but in my opinion, that wasn’t the cause of George Floyd’s death. We can discuss why black crime is high & why cops are trigger happy in their presence separately & it does have to deal with issues rooted from racism ... I was honestly blind to it growing up & never saw it myself into we moved to Memphis, TN out of college. That place is a whole other ballpark ...
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  #1176  
Old 28.04.2021, 19:23
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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There's not much credibility to such a statement when it's followed by active resistance.



The position is exactly how they had been instructed and the policy in place when Floyd died. See page 17 of this
except is not nor those the exhibit stated on page 17 say anything about how to do such procedure

However, it clearly states what to do after the subject is restrained.. which he clearly didn't

https://www.mncourts.gov/mncourtsgov...t808282020.pdf page 5 title of the slide: "ok they are in handcuffs now what"


lick less boot, lick more pussy. you'll live happier.

Last edited by Ouchboy; 28.04.2021 at 19:43. Reason: clarified
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Old 28.04.2021, 19:32
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

"Typically, second-degree murder is defined as murder that is not premeditated, or murder that is caused by the offender's reckless conduct that displays an obvious lack of concern for human life."

Sounds about right.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/second_degree_murder

What is the difference between a killer and a murderer is another question, not really a legal one if you ask me.
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  #1178  
Old 28.04.2021, 19:43
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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Floyd was high on fentanyl (plus something else I don't recall). The medical examiner testified under oath that, if Floyd had bee found dead in his home, he'd have declared him an overdose death.
The medical examiner you're quoting was brought as a witness to the trial and of course there's a video shows what he said during the trial. I guess you cannot know more that the doc you're quoting.

Trigger warning: Dr. Andrew Barker (medical examiner) testifies that the cause of death was cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual restraint, and neck compression. The doc explains that cause of death is described as the most important thing that precipitated the death. other things you think played a role in the death but were not direct causes get relegated to what's known as the other significant conditions part of the death certificate (fentanyl, meth, heart disease). So the other significant conditions are things that played a role in the death but didn't directly cause the death. So for example, My. Floyd use of fentanyl did not cause the subdual or neck restraint, his heart disease did not cause the subdual or the neck restraint,

So, from 0m0s to 7m17s is the meat. After that, there's a poorly prepared lawyer trying to medical practice with a doc. It would be interesting to code something that counts the number of times the defense lawyer says "uh".

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Old 28.04.2021, 20:29
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

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The prosecution didn't offer Floyd's drug dealer immunity for his testimony, as seems to be common. Why?
They didn't need him. In the minds of many jurors, drug dealer = bad guy who got a deal to say something that may or may not be true. Instead, the prosecution had people like the medical examiner, chief of police, etc. who are all (in theory) upstanding citizens.

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If he gets 10 years you can bet that the riots will start again.

I expect that they will give him more, both to appease the BLM crowd and restore peace, and to divert from the underlying problems, such as issues of police training. In other words, they will do what it takes so everything can continue as it was.
10 years isn't 10 years anyway in the USA, not that many people dig deep enough to find out. Between credit for time served + good behavior he'd likely be out in no more than 5 if sentenced for 10.
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Old 28.04.2021, 20:52
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Re: The racial time bomb-USA

@tom, fat fingers or why the groan?
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