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  #41  
Old 28.06.2020, 23:21
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

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You’re just trying to justify not doing anything to end it. When are you going to share that article about Irish slaves?
Why should I post articles about things that did not happen? White slavery however was a real thing, but besides some historians I guess nobody cares and considers it a thing of the past.

And you have no clue what I do and don't do.
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  #42  
Old 29.06.2020, 06:59
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

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I don't think it's about trying to make white people feel guilty for something that happened generations ago. I think it's more just about acknowledging the existence and problems of racism in general -- and the fact that even though legislation may have changed, social change itself follows legislation slowly. Racism is still very much alive today, and ignoring it isn't going to solve the problem. Nor is treating it as though it's acceptable. It's not about blaming white people so much as it is about trying to change a system of which slavery and racism have, historically, served as its foundation.
Well put

To those bothered about reparations, how about just paying your share of taxes today? That would be a start.

Last edited by KiwiSteve; 29.06.2020 at 07:02. Reason: Clarity
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  #43  
Old 29.06.2020, 10:09
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

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Getting rid of them is a pathetic attempt of judging people from the past by the rules of today. Besides that a lot of people do not actually care about what statues they tear down, they way to often have no clue at all about the person, all they see is some white dude from the past and thus it must go down.

BLM is a huge pile of stinking marxist bull-shit who only wants more of "us against them" and I'm amazed at all the damn cowards and suck-ups these days who let them do so.
Exactly, it didn't take long for the mask to slip. They want to combat racism by being racist . Whilst black lives matter, Black Lives don't Matter.

https://twitter.com/ukblm/status/1277177624884850689

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No platformed, cancelled... careers harmed... subject to rape (esp. the women) and death threats. Including, but not limited to

Baroness Nicholson
Jonathan Fox
Graham Lineham
Allison Bailey
Peter Tatchell

But hey. Believe what you want to believe. I really don't care.
It would be funny if it weren't so tragic, many of the people that championed this behaviour now find themselves on the receiving end of it!

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No one has ever said such a thing.

What people have said, is at this point activists are taking things to such an extreme, that people are afraid to voice an opinion that sways from their narrative. People are doing bizarre stuff to cover their asses when they have in fact done nothing wrong. I saw something today the BBC food website had pulled a load of recipes that referred to food such as "asian salad" for fear that this is racist. Next we will no longer be able to say we are going to a Chinese/Indian etc restaurant. It's getting out of hand.
This is it in a nutshell, racism does exist and will continue to do so, what is important though is that we're heading in the right direction. Look how much better things are today than 30 years ago, than 10 years ago, than even 5 years ago. It isn't going to be resolved by a step change, it's a gradual process. Erasing things because they may cause offense just detracts from the real issues. Everyone needs to focus on our successes and realise there's a way to go but that we're on the right path!

Last edited by TonyClifton; 29.06.2020 at 10:20.
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  #44  
Old 29.06.2020, 11:00
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

Well, some people here have said that statues of known racists (obliviously having been put in place as a means for that person to be idolized and respected) being removed or destroyed was wrong.

Someone else said that my best friend who teaches university classes on racism must see everything as being racist (and in my last post, where I said -- so tell me again that racism is just all in people's heads -- was directed to him or her).

So who is it exactly that gets to determine what is and isn't racist? Who has that ultimate right? White people?

I agree that some people have taken it to an extreme, but at the same time, I think people need to keep their eye on the real issues and not let the extremists distract from that or allow it to negate or diminish the problems of racism. If having a statue of a racist slave owner in place is more important to you than black people being offended by it, maybe you need to re-examine your own attitude toward racism. And if a black person is offended by Aunt Jemima pancake mix... I (as a white person) do not feel that I should have the right to tell them that they don't have the right to feel offended by it.
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  #45  
Old 29.06.2020, 11:03
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

Didn't Queen Boudica or Boadicea lead an Ancient Britons against enslavement revolt against The Roman Empire ?

The seeds of the revolt stemming from the fact that retiring Legionaires from the Roman Army were entitled to
take land from the conquered tribes of Roman Britain ( being the first amongst equals in the Roman Empire )
namely a citizen of Rome which soon escalated to a gross mistreatment and outrages against the Iceni tribe
of East Anglia when their King Prasutagus died with the Romans refusing to recognise his daughters
as joint inheritors of his land along with the Roman Emperor ( as Roman law forbids female inheritence )

The ensuing revolt in which the Roman city in Colchester was sacked and raised to the ground before
doing the same against Londinium, no doubt saw loads of Roman statues being toppled during the revolt;
that was so serious it looked like the Romans could lose the whole of Roman Britain before the rebellion
was finally crushed.
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  #46  
Old 29.06.2020, 11:39
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

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This is it in a nutshell, racism does exist and will continue to do so, what is important though is that we're heading in the right direction. Look how much better things are today than 30 years ago, than 10 years ago, than even 5 years ago. It isn't going to be resolved by a step change, it's a gradual process. Erasing things because they may cause offense just detracts from the real issues. Everyone needs to focus on our successes and realise there's a way to go but that we're on the right path!
I'm not so sure about this. All I see is people rioting and looting in the name of BLM. This is not doing any good in my eyes...
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  #47  
Old 29.06.2020, 11:55
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

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I'm not so sure about this. All I see is people rioting and looting in the name of BLM. This is not doing any good in my eyes...
I agree, this is really terrible. What I meant was that until now we've been heading in the right direction, what's going on at the moment is truly awful!

Watching the US imploding through what can only be described as a collective insanity would be fascinating were it not so dangerous. What's worse, it's already spread across the pond to Europe, mainly in the UK, but also France, Belgium, the Netherlands and Germany. The West seems to be self destructing, imploding, I bet Presidents Putin and Xi are loving it!

Watching the countries rioting and burning under the loose banner of racism, when many of these countries are the only places IN THE WORLD where anyone of any race can aspire to be successful is utterly mind boggling! Is this how civilizations fall? Was it like this in the final days of Rome?
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  #48  
Old 29.06.2020, 12:16
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

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.....Now tell me again how racism is just all in people's heads?
Well, actually it is. And that's exactly the problem!

What I wonder is how the hell did it get in there?!
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  #49  
Old 29.06.2020, 12:59
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

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I'm not so sure about this. All I see is people rioting and looting in the name of BLM. This is not doing any good in my eyes...
There have been many peaceful protests going on, but of course, the media often chooses to only focus on the riots and looting (sensationalism), which in turn causes (some) people to only focus on the riots and looting. It appears that some people are not able to understand that not all protestors are rioters or looters. They just kind of group them all into one category.

Peaceful Black Lives Matter Protesters Get Creative

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BF9qi-FTTz4
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  #50  
Old 29.06.2020, 13:00
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

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Well, actually it is. And that's exactly the problem!

What I wonder is how the hell did it get in there?!
If you think that racism is just all in people's heads... Well, then, you're part of the problem.

It's quite sad that I've seen sooo many people in this thread and on the EF in general try to negate the existence or problem of racism and instead try to shift the focus and deflect blame onto black people. I don't know if that's because the majority of people here are white or what the deal is. But I have definitely come across far more posts and people here who have chosen to focus on what black people might do wrong (e.g. blaming BLM or black-on-black crime, etc.) and refuse to directly acknowledge racism as being a problem, which is the reason why BLM exists in the first place and why the protests are happening.

It's just really disgusting to see people use the subject of racism as a means to try to shift the blame onto black people.
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  #51  
Old 29.06.2020, 13:11
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

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If you think that racism is just all in people's heads... Well, then, you're part of the problem.
You mis-understood him. Racism is in peoples heads.... because that's exactly where it comes from... a person's racist thoughts and actions come from their brain!!!
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Old 29.06.2020, 13:17
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

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If you think that racism is just all in people's heads... Well, then, you're part of the problem.....
I know it is. It is totally absent in my head.

You believe there are different races amongst human beings?! Then I don't know what you are arguing about, racism is you thing.

And still I wonder how the hell this ever got into people's head.
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Old 29.06.2020, 13:40
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

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I know it is. It is totally absent in my head.

You believe there are different races amongst human beings?! Then I don't know what you are arguing about, racism is you thing.

And still I wonder how the hell this ever got into people's head.
As long as there are racists who discriminate against people according to their skin color, race does exist as a social construct. There may be no biological or scientific basis for it, but there is also no real biological basis for stupidity. That doesn't mean stupidity doesn't exist and that it isn't a problem.
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Old 29.06.2020, 14:27
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

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All I see is people rioting and looting in the name of BLM.
Then you simply are not looking around widely enough.

John Oliver has a video somewhere that might at least give you an alternative view.
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Old 29.06.2020, 15:17
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

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I have kept a postcard on my desk for years that says:-



"Never underestimate the power of very stupid people in large groups"


I bought it about 15 years ago because it made me laugh, now I think this statement is very true.
esp. if they are old, rich and sitting in parliament!
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  #56  
Old 29.06.2020, 15:26
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

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It depends... she will probably have a tendency to see peoples motivation more being based on racism than on other things. Economics automatically assume people make decisions based on what is best for them economically. Car enthousiasts will assume people buy a car for power and performance, not because of the cute color. Tax advisors automatically assume people want them to find loopsholes to pay less tax.

Regarding the bus question, my answer is, want to sit in the isle, at the front, on the sidewalk side. But no it had to be a question about race....
This precisely, in a nutshell, is the problem. Even while talking about diversity and tolerance they shut their eyes to the fact that not everybody sees the world in the same patterns as they do, or bases their decisons on the same patterns of thought as they have.
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Old 29.06.2020, 16:02
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

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Then you simply are not looking around widely enough.

John Oliver has a video somewhere that might at least give you an alternative view.
Wow, this sort of utterly one sided analysis doesn't help the situation whatsoever and creates just more division. Police lives matter too!
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Old 29.06.2020, 17:08
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

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esp. if they are old, rich and sitting in parliament!

I'm sure you can pinpoint them better than that, as they all sit in the House of Lords.
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Old 29.06.2020, 17:22
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

I'm watching amused in my own sphere of interest: "The new language for SPI pin labeling recommends the use of SDO/SDI (Serial Data Out/In) for single-role hardware, and COPI/CIPO for “Controller Out, Peripheral In” and “Controller In, Peripheral Out” for devices that can be either the controller or the peripheral. The change also updates the “SS” (Slave Select) pin to use “CS” (Chip Select)."

I'm too old and tired now. The Phil_MCR of years ago would have trolled them by complaining that "Controller out" is too dominating and should be replaced by "Suggester provider " and "Perpheral in" is too denigrating and passive and should be replaced with "Highly-valued input accepter".
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Old 29.06.2020, 17:28
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

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Wow, this sort of utterly one sided analysis doesn't help the situation whatsoever and creates just more division. Police lives matter too!
Saying that "black lives matter" doesn't imply -- or isn't intended to imply -- that other lives do not matter. Some (usually racist) people, however, choose to interpret it that way because then they feel justified in their racism. It's not a matter of mutual exclusivity. Acknowledging the problem of police brutality / unnecessary force against blacks is not simultaneously saying that police lives do not matter.
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