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  #81  
Old 30.06.2020, 20:54
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

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Possibly along these lines

"What I consider is unnecessary, is unnecessary."
Something along those lines. Except that the last part of the comics should be something like
"I label the people who disagree with me idiots and have them canceled".
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  #82  
Old 30.06.2020, 21:33
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

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A white person can also be offended by a statue honouring a man who made money out of the Africa->US slave trade. But that's not the kind of offence I think you mean. I think you mean an emotional, visceral hurt. I can understand that and sympathise. Yeah - get rid of the statue. His kind were vilified way back. Before Twitter was invented. What idiot decided to put it up in the first place?

The question is why does the black person feel that hurt? My guess is that if there weren't such ongoing, egregious examples of maltreatment of black people in the US, which has been going on for so long, it wouldn't matter. It would be ancient history. The statue reminds that things are still really not where they should be.

And that is what needs to be addressed. I can't help feeling that felling statues, while perhaps a good way of achieving some anger release and personal satisfaction, is really just putting a plaster over the main issue of ongoing discrimination in many places due to skin colour. (And other things, but one step at a time). Could it be, if we remove the statues first, we're just removing the reminders, and actually making reform more difficult?
The only statues I have an opinion on are the ones in the former Confederate States of America. The states that broke away from the United States of America did so in large part because they wanted to retain slavery. The statues/monuments in the south (and names of roads, schools, etc.) are named after Confederate "heroes". If we're being honest, they are to celebrate and memorialize people who literally fought to keep other human beings enslaved.

Many statues and monuments to the Confederacy were erected not right after the war, but during the 20th century. Many went up during the Jim Crow era, arguably to emphasize white supremacy and remind blacks to stay in their place. Some were even dedicated in this century.

If you're a white person who longs for the Confederacy, those were the good old days and the statue is history that should not be removed. Never mind that it essentially glorifies slavery. If you're black, the Confederate monuments and statues - and the people who defend them staying in place - are a constant reminder of how one group of humans fought to keep another group enslaved and how one group still wishes the war would have gone the other way. I don't think we need the reminders, society still reminds minorities every day that they're not equal.

Statues basically glorify specific people, usually those that led the fight. Monuments are usually plaques of remembrance to "those who fought". There's simply no need to keep glorifying people who led the fight to keep others enslaved. Move the statues to a museum and rename the places after people who did good things for humanity.

Just my 2 Rp
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  #83  
Old 01.07.2020, 11:13
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

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Something along those lines. Except that the last part of the comics should be something like
"I label the people who disagree with me idiots and have them canceled".
Only if you are woke.
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  #84  
Old 01.07.2020, 11:49
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

JP's video was a good one, nailed many points.

I don't think anyone can or should be taking away from it that free speech, whatever that really means, has been affected in any way in the last few months.

It is just that speech is now having more consequences...which is entirely the principle behind free speech - you can say what you want, but you can't expect others to like it (and by extension carry on supporting your "brand" if you say something they don't like).

You can only be "cancelled" if not enough people like your persona, not for saying something controversial. Look at Trump for example, he's spewing polemic almost every tweet and he hasn't been cancelled because enough people agree with him.
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  #85  
Old 01.07.2020, 12:05
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

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JP's video was a good one, nailed many points.

I don't think anyone can or should be taking away from it that free speech, whatever that really means, has been affected in any way in the last few months.

It is just that speech is now having more consequences...which is entirely the principle behind free speech - you can say what you want, but you can't expect others to like it (and by extension carry on supporting your "brand" if you say something they don't like).

You can only be "cancelled" if not enough people like your persona, not for saying something controversial. Look at Trump for example, he's spewing polemic almost every tweet and he hasn't been cancelled because enough people agree with him.
I think you've completely missed the point of what he said. The point is that a loud minority are "cancelling" people, not a majority. If saying things like "men can't have babies" results in people calling for sackings or boycotts than we're heading to a very dark place.
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  #86  
Old 01.07.2020, 12:41
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

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You can only be "cancelled" if not enough people like your persona, not for saying something controversial. Look at Trump for example, he's spewing polemic almost every tweet and he hasn't been cancelled because enough people agree with him.
You must have been living under a rock the past 3-4 years if you think that Trump wouldn't have been canceled ages ago if that was possible. Given how he's being reported on you could easily argue that's already the case, to the extent that's in the MSM's power.
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  #87  
Old 01.07.2020, 12:45
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

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I think you've completely missed the point of what he said. The point is that a loud minority are "cancelling" people, not a majority. If saying things like "men can't have babies" results in people calling for sackings or boycotts than we're heading to a very dark place.
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You must have been living under a rock the past 3-4 years if you think that Trump wouldn't have been canceled ages ago if that was possible. Given how he's being reported on you could easily argue that's already the case, to the extent that's in the MSM's power.
The fact Trump hasn't been "cancelled" renders your points moot.

Twas ever thus, but now people are beginning to grow a bit of a backbone and actually say when they find stuff distasteful.

Jim Davidson still draws an audience, but isn't on mainstream TV any more because of his "jokes". Is this cancelled in your eyes? I think it's really just finding your audience - big break was great back in its day but mores have moved on and you don't deserve a spot on TV just because you had one in the 80s/90s.

People spouting the worst (in my opinion) bigotry and crazy theories find huge audiences - is Alex Jones cancelled?

Piers Morgan seems more popular than ever, despite his past indiscretions - is he cancelled?

This is just market forces at work.
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  #88  
Old 01.07.2020, 13:47
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

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Only if you are woke.
I am awake.

Does that count??

But I got powers.

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I think you've completely missed the point of what he said. The point is that a loud minority are "cancelling" people, not a majority. If saying things like "men can't have babies" results in people calling for sackings or boycotts than we're heading to a very dark place.
What does this 'cancelling' mean. Calling the opponents names? Like..racist? Psychopath? Sociopath? Narcisist? And 'my aunt is a shrink so I gotsa knowz'?

It gets old very fast..All this. Only people interested in ideas, not flaming others can tolerate the heat.
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  #89  
Old 01.07.2020, 13:55
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

I just wish the woke left finally realises the majority of the people does not agree with them and that they adjust their volume accordingly (i mean down !)
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  #90  
Old 01.07.2020, 14:03
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

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What does this 'cancelling' mean. Calling the opponents names? Like..racist? Psychopath? Sociopath? Narcisist? And 'my aunt is a shrink so I gotsa knowz'?
.
People calling for an artists/presenter/tv personality to be cancelled due to their views or jokes they've made in the past/present.
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  #91  
Old 01.07.2020, 14:08
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

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What does this 'cancelling' mean
I think it means try to influence people's employers to prevent them having a platform. So actors like Lawrence Fox, or the writer Graham Lineham are having trouble getting work, because the activists have put their potential employers at fear of bad publicity. E.g. "If you give Fox a role in this theatre production, we'll picket outside of it". Not worth the risk.

JK Rowling's publishers have stuck by her - but that could be because she makes them millions, so she is worth the risk.

Doesn't really change anything concerning the "cause", but it makes the activists feel they achieved something (brought down their enemy) and gives them a nice and warm glow of self-righteousness.
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  #92  
Old 01.07.2020, 14:21
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

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So actors like Lawrence Fox, or the writer Graham Lineham are having trouble getting work, because the activists have put their potential employers at fear of bad publicity. E.g. "If you give Fox a role in this theatre production, we'll picket outside of it". Not worth the risk.
.
I never knew any of that about Graham Lineham, I still love the majority of shows he's done though. Although judging by the ways things are going, they'll all be removed from Netflix shortly.
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Old 01.07.2020, 14:23
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

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I think it means try to influence people's employers to prevent them having a platform. So actors like Lawrence Fox, or the writer Graham Lineham are having trouble getting work, because the activists have put their potential employers at fear of bad publicity. E.g. "If you give Fox a role in this theatre production, we'll picket outside of it". Not worth the risk.

JK Rowling's publishers have stuck by her - but that could be because she makes them millions, so she is worth the risk.

Doesn't really change anything concerning the "cause", but it makes the activists feel they achieved something (brought down their enemy) and gives them a nice and warm glow of self-righteousness.
I think you sum it up rather neatly.

Back in the day, people would have been queuing round the block to work with Graham Linehan after Father Ted and The IT Crowd, but he seems to have entered the "old man shouting at cloud" phase. He has a strong opinion and sticks by it, and it does no doubt cost him work, but I am sure he wouldn't complain as he feels so strongly about the issue.
His main issue is that the people he is now offending were probably a chunk of his actual fans from Father Ted times, so employers probably think whether he really has the cachet any more to draw in many viewers (and therefore ad/subscription revenue), in spite of the undoubted quality of his work. Sad, but that's capitalism for you.
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  #94  
Old 01.07.2020, 15:37
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

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People calling for an artists/presenter/tv personality to be cancelled due to their views or jokes they've made in the past/present.
Yeah I know. It was a rhetorical question. I was questioning the reasoning behind it. Since the definitions for flaming people are as subjective as people's ideas these warriors are fighting against. But for some reason there is some kind of branding going on. Both ways: the sjw and all the rest (the racists, psychopaths and sociopaths - ie those who think differently or use different terms, as is perceived by sjw). Branding -> elitism -> the opposite of inclusion that we see people campaigning for.

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I think it means try to influence people's employers to prevent them having a platform. So actors like Lawrence Fox, or the writer Graham Lineham are having trouble getting work, because the activists have put their potential employers at fear of bad publicity. E.g. "If you give Fox a role in this theatre production, we'll picket outside of it". Not worth the risk.

JK Rowling's publishers have stuck by her - but that could be because she makes them millions, so she is worth the risk.

Doesn't really change anything concerning the "cause", but it makes the activists feel they achieved something (brought down their enemy) and gives them a nice and warm glow of self-righteousness.
For destroying lives and careers? People warned against this way of going about social 'progress' years ago. Greta, I think didn't help. It takes more than being visible to make a positivite impact. Now everyone who wants to enter in a mere discussion is quickly labeled that they are apologists, that they justify, excuse or promote negative trends in society. Doesn't anyone think thay it will in a little while be safer to not talk at all? What if..?

That's not progress.
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Old 01.07.2020, 16:03
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

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Doesn't anyone think thay it will in a little while be safer to not talk at all? What if..?
It just means when you talk, you need to have the courage of your convictions. No bad thing, really.
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Old 01.07.2020, 16:58
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

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It just means when you talk, you need to have the courage of your convictions. No bad thing, really.
Not really. Because the consequences are carried out by a very small bullying minority, and idiot companies and organisations think that twitter reflects the general populace.

Is it really appropriate for people to have their career affected because they say, for example, that Meghan Markle wasn't hounded out of Britain because she is black?
Should someone really lose their position because they state that there is such a thing as biological sex?

I also doubt very much that Graham Lineham has offended many of his fans.
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Old 01.07.2020, 17:17
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

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Not really. Because the consequences are carried out by a very small bullying minority, and idiot companies and organisations think that twitter reflects the general populace.

Is it really appropriate for people to have their career affected because they say, for example, that Meghan Markle wasn't hounded out of Britain because she is black?
Should someone really lose their position because they state that there is such a thing as biological sex?

I also doubt very much that Graham Lineham has offended many of his fans.
Companies will do whatever protects the bottom line.

If Linehan's opinions were popular, they would happily have him working there.

That's the long and short of it really, it isn't some big conspiracy theory. If you espouse unpopular opinions, you're less likely to get used by companies whose clientele are unlikely to appreciate said opinions.
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  #98  
Old 01.07.2020, 17:32
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

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Companies will do whatever protects the bottom line.

If Linehan's opinions were popular, they would happily have him working there.

That's the long and short of it really, it isn't some big conspiracy theory. If you espouse unpopular opinions, you're less likely to get used by companies whose clientele are unlikely to appreciate said opinions.
I don't think that's exactly true, I think most people don't really care either way what a persons personal views are as long as the product is ok. I think that there's an extremely vocal minority who drowns out social media feeds of companies and producers. It's not financial, it's just trying to keep the ravening mob from their doors (pages)
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Old 01.07.2020, 17:40
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

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I don't think that's exactly true, I think most people don't really care either way what a persons personal views are as long as the product is ok. I think that there's an extremely vocal minority who drowns out social media feeds of companies and producers. It's not financial, it's just trying to keep the ravening mob from their doors (pages)
Which is financial on its own. I don't think it is prevalent pov either, it is definitely the most audible one. Which says a lot about the content, too. I don't think every freedom fighter or sjw is disingenuous either or with ill intentions. Those are imho good ideas. But I am glad nobody asks me about my personal opinion about the efficacy of the method of operation.
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Old 01.07.2020, 17:56
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

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I don't think that's exactly true, I think most people don't really care either way what a persons personal views are as long as the product is ok. I think that there's an extremely vocal minority who drowns out social media feeds of companies and producers. It's not financial, it's just trying to keep the ravening mob from their doors (pages)
As MusicChick says, that is really ersatz financial.

If 10 people are shouting really loud on Twitter and Facebook that they dislike the person you've hired to present your shows / do your ads / whatever, no company is going to care one iota.

If 10,000 people on social media are doing the same, then maybe they start to take notice and weigh the financial cost of ignoring said complaints.

(Almost) no company is making "ethical" decisions here, they are calculating the most profitable route out of every controversy.
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