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Old 28.06.2020, 09:50
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Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5TV...ature=youtu.be

As the British columnist Giles Coren put. Woke Macht Frei.
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Old 28.06.2020, 10:19
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

Saw that yesterday... hit the nail on the head!
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Old 28.06.2020, 14:35
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

I like the bit about in the name of inclusivity, categorising people into narrower and narrower segments, based on sexuality, gender identity and skin colour.
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Old 28.06.2020, 16:41
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

This. Weird way to deal with the past:
<<..... expecting them to have lived by today's standard>>
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Old 28.06.2020, 17:09
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

A certain amount of sympathy for his rant, but in the end it was pretty empty. So the labour party deals in self inflicted internal squabbles -thats being going on as long as I can remember.
Otherwise no cogent arguments - I thought that statues was a dead issue. Put new heads on the lot of them or provide tomatoes so we can deface the ones we do not like.
As for compartmentalising people -that unfortunately is what humans do.
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Old 28.06.2020, 17:18
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

I guess he thinks the world would actually be a better place if people didn't stand up against racism, etc.?

Should we all keep our mouths shut and pretend it doesn't exist? Should we condone and tolerate it with silence and just look the other way?

Apparently, his idea of a real utopia is for racist people to be allowed to be racist without having to be held accountable for their bullsh*t.
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Old 28.06.2020, 17:32
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

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I guess he thinks the world would actually be a better place if people didn't stand up against racism, etc.?

Should we all keep our mouths shut and pretend it doesn't exist? Should we condone and tolerate it with silence and just look the other way?

Apparently, his idea of a real utopia is for racist people to be allowed to be racist without having to be held accountable for their bullsh*t.
Firstly he’s a comedian.... yes?

And he’s not saying any of that. But he’s objecting to the fact, that these days, you can’t express any opinion, or have a debate, without being labelled some sort of discriminator. freedom of speech has actually disappeared. Don’t agree whole heartedly with people tearing down statues, for example, then you are labelled a racist and white supremist etc etc.
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Old 28.06.2020, 17:44
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

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Firstly he’s a comedian.... yes?

And he’s not saying any of that. But he’s objecting to the fact, that these days, you can’t express any opinion, or have a debate, without being labelled some sort of discriminator. freedom of speech has actually disappeared. Don’t agree whole heartedly with people tearing down statues, for example, then you are labelled a racist and white supremist etc etc.
I don’t buy this, you see, no ones speech has been removed, in fact, the trouble is, you see, that people are actually speaking back to people who never thought people should ever question the things they say, this they equate to anti free speech, because they’re used to the opposite, they’re used to saying sexist and racist things and people should just nod or laugh politely, but should just keep quiet and not point it out
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Old 28.06.2020, 17:46
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

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Firstly he’s a comedian.... yes?

And he’s not saying any of that. But he’s objecting to the fact, that these days, you can’t express any opinion, or have a debate, without being labelled some sort of discriminator. freedom of speech has actually disappeared. Don’t agree whole heartedly with people tearing down statues, for example, then you are labelled a racist and white supremist etc etc.
I think maybe you have a problem in not recognising that those statues have a symbolic importance. Getting rid of them is an step in coming to terms with the past and moving into a hopefully better future.
Wanting to preserve statues is ? it does not necessarily make you a racist or white supremist, but maybe suggest you have a strange sense of priorities.
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Old 28.06.2020, 18:09
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

I didn’t agree with the Black Lives Matter protests in Europe recently, due to the fact that many people were not wearing masks and social distancing was out of the window.

When I said so I got torn apart. I was racist, white supremisist, you name it. None of it true, I was just mad that 3 months of us being in lockdown may be going to waste. However people couldn’t deal with the fact that I had an alternative opinion, therefore I was a terrible person.
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Old 28.06.2020, 18:23
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

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I think maybe you have a problem in not recognising that those statues have a symbolic importance. Getting rid of them is an step in coming to terms with the past and moving into a hopefully better future.
Getting rid of them is a pathetic attempt of judging people from the past by the rules of today. Besides that a lot of people do not actually care about what statues they tear down, they way to often have no clue at all about the person, all they see is some white dude from the past and thus it must go down.

BLM is a huge pile of stinking marxist bull-shit who only wants more of "us against them" and I'm amazed at all the damn cowards and suck-ups these days who let them do so.
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Old 28.06.2020, 18:28
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

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Firstly he’s a comedian.... yes?

And he’s not saying any of that. But he’s objecting to the fact, that these days, you can’t express any opinion, or have a debate, without being labelled some sort of discriminator. freedom of speech has actually disappeared. Don’t agree whole heartedly with people tearing down statues, for example, then you are labelled a racist and white supremist etc etc.
Well, I don't care if he's a comedian, he's still responsible for what he says. And I think it's pretty obvious that he wasn't 'just joking around' in that video.

I think the essence of the problem may be that we're now living in an age where people are eagerly voicing their opinions all over the internet, and it's generated a very reactionary environment. That is in fact what I'm doing right now -- casting my opinion -- and what he is doing in that video on his own youtube channel. So if you're going to eagerly cast your opinions out there, you need to be accountable for them and you need to keep in mind that your opinions may generate reactions. So while I can understand his point about some people being too quick to label others as racist, at the same time, part of the problem is that racist people often don't realize their own racism... and therefore also don't recognize it in others. So simply turning a blind eye toward it really isn't doing anything to try to improve the situation.
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Old 28.06.2020, 18:37
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

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Getting rid of them is a pathetic attempt of judging people from the past by the rules of today. Besides that a lot of people do not actually care about what statues they tear down, they way to often have no clue at all about the person, all they see is some white dude from the past and thus it must go down.

BLM is a huge pile of stinking marxist bull-shit who only wants more of "us against them" and I'm amazed at all the damn cowards and suck-ups these days who let them do so.
I guess it depends on whether or not you can understand the symbolism of it. Some people see simply the tearing down of a statue. Others see it as a refusal to continue a tradition of revering racist people as heroes.

"Insanity is the inability to question tradition."

I don't think BLM tries to encourage an "us against them" mentality. There are a lot of white people who are part of the BLM movement. But I guess there are some people in this world who think that racism against blacks isn't a real problem that needs to be addressed and/or that there shouldn't be an organization trying to fight against it.
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Old 28.06.2020, 19:00
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

I have kept a postcard on my desk for years that says:-



"Never underestimate the power of very stupid people in large groups"


I bought it about 15 years ago because it made me laugh, now I think this statement is very true.
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Old 28.06.2020, 19:40
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

The chinese have a nice term for all this: Baizuo

Good people are speaking up against this, there is too much Baizuo if you ask me.

Frpm wikipedia:
Baizuo (/ˈbaɪˌdzwɔː/; Chinese: 白左 báizuǒ, literally White Left)[1][2] is a derogatory Chinese neologism and political epithet used to refer to Western leftist ideologies primarily espoused by white people.[3] The term baizuo is related to the term shèngmǔ (圣母, 聖母, literally "Blessed Mother"), a sarcastic reference to those whose political opinions are perceived as being guided by emotions or a hypocritical show of selflessness and empathy.[
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Old 28.06.2020, 19:40
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

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I don’t buy this, you see, no ones speech has been removed, ...
No platformed, cancelled... careers harmed... subject to rape (esp. the women) and death threats. Including, but not limited to

Baroness Nicholson
Jonathan Fox
Graham Lineham
Allison Bailey
Peter Tatchell

But hey. Believe what you want to believe. I really don't care.
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Old 28.06.2020, 19:52
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

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Getting rid of them is a pathetic attempt of judging people from the past by the rules of today. Besides that a lot of people do not actually care about what statues they tear down, they way to often have no clue at all about the person, all they see is some white dude from the past and thus it must go down.

BLM is a huge pile of stinking marxist bull-shit who only wants more of "us against them" and I'm amazed at all the damn cowards and suck-ups these days who let them do so.
? Is this sarcasm? no, serious OK............
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Old 28.06.2020, 20:22
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

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I think maybe you have a problem in not recognising that those statues have a symbolic importance. Getting rid of them is an step in coming to terms with the past and moving into a hopefully better future.
Wanting to preserve statues is ? it does not necessarily make you a racist or white supremist, but maybe suggest you have a strange sense of priorities.
But why do we have to come in terms with that past? And why only with a specific part of it? And why should only the white guy feel quilt over something that was practiced generations ago and worldwide by all? It is as stupid and misplaced as that in hundred years my small-small children would demand things from the Germans for invading the Netherlands 180 years ago.

They can kiss my ass with their quilt bull-shit.
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Old 28.06.2020, 20:59
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

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The chinese have a nice term for all this: Baizuo

Good people are speaking up against this, there is too much Baizuo if you ask me.

Frpm wikipedia:
Baizuo (/ˈbaɪˌdzwɔː/; Chinese: 白左 báizuǒ, literally White Left)[1][2] is a derogatory Chinese neologism and political epithet used to refer to Western leftist ideologies primarily espoused by white people.[3] The term baizuo is related to the term shèngmǔ (圣母, 聖母, literally "Blessed Mother"), a sarcastic reference to those whose political opinions are perceived as being guided by emotions or a hypocritical show of selflessness and empathy.[
Well, we've seen what happens when people who lack empathy make decisions and when people do not allow emotions like empathy to serve as their moral compass. Coincidentally, a lack of empathy is the broad definition of psychopathy, and a common characteristic among psychopaths is that they are detached from their emotions and have an on/off 'switch' for empathy.

Neurological basis for lack of empathy in psychopaths
https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0924174331.htm

Psychopathic criminals have empathy switch
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-23431793


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But why do we have to come in terms with that past? And why only with a specific part of it? And why should only the white guy feel quilt over something that was practiced generations ago and worldwide by all? It is as stupid and misplaced as that in hundred years my small-small children would demand things from the Germans for invading the Netherlands 180 years ago.

They can kiss my ass with their quilt bull-shit.
I don't think it's about trying to make white people feel guilty for something that happened generations ago. I think it's more just about acknowledging the existence and problems of racism in general -- and the fact that even though legislation may have changed, social change itself follows legislation slowly. Racism is still very much alive today, and ignoring it isn't going to solve the problem. Nor is treating it as though it's acceptable. It's not about blaming white people so much as it is about trying to change a system of which slavery and racism have, historically, served as its foundation.
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Old 28.06.2020, 21:02
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Re: Jonathan Pie on "Woke Utopia"

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but why do we have to come in terms with that past? And why only with a specific part of it? And why should only the white guy feel quilt over something that was practiced generations ago and worldwide by all? It is as stupid and misplaced as that in hundred years my small-small children would demand things from the germans for invading the netherlands 180 years ago.

They can kiss my ass with their quilt bull-shit.
hey! I demand reparations for the second and third anglo-dutch wars of sixteen hundred and something or other and what not. Especially the sneaky dutch raid on the medway. And get rid of willem van de velde´s painting glorifying britains defeat, it offends me greatly.

I actually wrote that in caps for better effect but EF´s filter won´t let me, so you are just going to have to imagine it.
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