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View Poll Results: Who will win the US election?
Trump/Pence 11 52.38%
Biden/Harris 10 47.62%
Voters: 21. You may not vote on this poll

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  #2721  
Old 11.11.2020, 09:45
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

Trump's behavior is becoming increasingly alarming...

Trump administration removes senior defense officials and installs loyalists, triggering alarm at Pentagon
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/10/p...gns/index.html

"The Trump administration has carried out sweeping changes atop the Defense Department's civilian leadership structure, removing several of its most senior officials and replacing them with perceived loyalists to the President.
The flurry of changes, announced by the Department of Defense in a statement roughly 24 hours after President Donald Trump fired Defense Secretary Mark Esper, have put officials inside the Pentagon on edge and fueled a growing sense of alarm among military and civilian officials, who are concerned about what could come next.
Four senior civilian officials have been fired or have resigned since Monday, including Esper, his chief of staff and the top officials overseeing policy and intelligence. They were replaced by perceived Trump loyalists, including a controversial figure who promoted fringe conspiracy theories and called former President Barack Obama a terrorist.

"It is hard to overstate just how dangerous high-level turnover at the Department of Defense is during a period of presidential transition. The top policy professional in the Department resigning the day after the Secretary of Defense was fired could mark the beginning of a process of gutting the DoD -- something that should alarm all Americans."


This really is the kind of behavior that only comes from a dictator. Trump needs to either give it up or he is going to be overthrown. I joked a couple months ago that they were going to have to go into the White House and tranquilize him and drag him out. And that is literally beginning to look more and more probable.

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  #2722  
Old 11.11.2020, 09:55
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

Donald Trump is entitled to request that the law does its job and investigates the election. If Mr Trump had won by a similar margin following such a high usage of mail in ballots then the Democrats would be doing exactly the same thing.

I'm almost certain they'll find voter fraud on a significant scale, likewise I'm almost certain it won't be on a scale enough to overturn any of the results! Perhaps that isn't the strategy, perhaps Donald Trump's legal team just wants to try and do enough to discredit the entire vote?
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  #2723  
Old 11.11.2020, 10:08
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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I'm almost certain they'll find voter fraud on a significant scale, likewise I'm almost certain it won't be on a scale enough to overturn any of the results! Perhaps that isn't the strategy, perhaps Donald Trump's legal team just wants to try and do enough to discredit the entire vote?
...and your evidence for this claim is...? I guess exactly as much as Trump has so far provided - none. Oh and anyway your claim is a contradiction in terms - if they find voter fraud on a significant scale it would by definition be enough to overturn some of the results.

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Donald Trump is entitled to request that the law does its job and investigates the election. If Mr Trump had won by a similar margin following such a high usage of mail in ballots then the Democrats would be doing exactly the same thing.
Mail-in voting seems to work perfectly well here in Switzerland.
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  #2724  
Old 11.11.2020, 10:15
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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...Mail-in voting seems to work perfectly well here in Switzerland.

Small country and Swiss are honest people in general

Seriously though, I think in every US election there is fraud. To what extent is the question. Currently, there is no proof that it was at a scale to turn this election.
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  #2725  
Old 11.11.2020, 10:15
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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I'm almost certain they'll find voter fraud on a significant scale, likewise I'm almost certain it won't be on a scale enough to overturn any of the results! Perhaps that isn't the strategy, perhaps Donald Trump's legal team just wants to try and do enough to discredit the entire vote?
If voter fraud is found on a significant scale, then why would it not be significant to the outcome.

What is the basis for your assumption of significant voter fraud. Recent history does not support your assertion. Voter suppression on the other hand......
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  #2726  
Old 11.11.2020, 10:24
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

About 1/4th of the votes cast in 2016 were via mail-in ballots. Trump had no trouble with them then.

"In 2016, more than 41 percent of all ballots were cast before Election Day. Of the total turnout, approximately 17 percent of ballots were cast using in-person early voting and nearly 24 percent were cast using by-mail absentee voting."
https://www.eac.gov/news/2017/06/29/...vides-snapshot


Let's face reality here... The fact is, Trump had been saying long before the election that the only way he was going to accept the results is if he wins. If it wasn't mail-in ballots, he would be making up some other excuse to try to deem the results invalid because the only alternative is to admit his own defeat. It's always some kind of conspiracy against him, isn't it? Just like the impeachment and just like the pandemic when he was saying last Winter that it was some kind of "Democratic hoax?"

Lack of Accountability in Narcissists
Narcissists lie and rewrite history, but why?

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...in-narcissists
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  #2727  
Old 11.11.2020, 10:24
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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....I'm almost certain they'll find voter fraud on a significant scale, likewise I'm almost certain it won't be on a scale enough to overturn any of the results! ...
Who will decide if the scale is big enough to overturn the results? If the whole thing comes to this, it probably will depend on who will make the decision.
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  #2728  
Old 11.11.2020, 10:32
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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This really is the kind of behavior that only comes from a dictator. Trump needs to either give it up or he is going to be overthrown. I joked a couple months ago that they were going to have to go into the White House and tranquilize him and drag him out. And that is literally beginning to look more and more probable.
Is there a legal basis for removal of Trump? Then the legal way should be used, why need to overthrow?

Last edited by leonie; 11.11.2020 at 11:06. Reason: typo
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  #2729  
Old 11.11.2020, 10:33
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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Donald Trump is entitled to request that the law does its job and investigates the election. If Mr Trump had won by a similar margin following such a high usage of mail in ballots then the Democrats would be doing exactly the same thing.
Actually the Democrats have no way to request that the law does the job and investigates the election.

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I'm almost certain they'll find voter fraud on a significant scale, likewise I'm almost certain it won't be on a scale enough to overturn any of the results! Perhaps that isn't the strategy, perhaps Donald Trump's legal team just wants to try and do enough to discredit the entire vote?
No doubt some dead people voted, no doubt people who have moved recently voted in the wrong place, no doubt that there was some fraud. But with the tightest race being 7000 votes (GA) it is so unlikely that results could have been changed. Any fraud involving thousands of votes would need a conspiracy of significant numbers to accomplish. And in the media crazed US we would now have people spilling the beans, all for their two minutes of fame. Even that postal worker that accused his colleagues of backdating postmarks has recanted his claim (and I believe he subsequently recanted his recanting). Hardly a credible witness. And how would you backdate a postmark? And in any case they were sealed envelopes, who would know what the votes were inside.
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  #2730  
Old 11.11.2020, 10:46
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

It is amazing how so many fall for the "election fraud" argument when there is so far zero evidence for it.

I guess the Trump strategy is working.
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  #2731  
Old 11.11.2020, 10:47
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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Is there a legal basis for removal of Tramp? Then the legal way should be used, why need to overthrow?
Well, as far as I know, a situation with a US President refusing to leave office after losing an election is unprecedented, so it's hard to say how this is going to end. I do think that him being overthrown (forcibly removed from office) seems unlikely, but in all honesty, considering his increasingly irrational behavior and now him suddenly putting Trump loyalists at the head of the Department of Defense, I think one has to consider a very real possibility of him needing to be forcibly removed from office in some way or another. He's already made it quite clear that he's refusing a peaceful surrender of power.
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  #2732  
Old 11.11.2020, 10:53
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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Donald Trump is entitled to request that the law does its job and investigates the election. If Mr Trump had won by a similar margin following such a high usage of mail in ballots then the Democrats would be doing exactly the same thing.

I'm almost certain they'll find voter fraud on a significant scale, likewise I'm almost certain it won't be on a scale enough to overturn any of the results! Perhaps that isn't the strategy, perhaps Donald Trump's legal team just wants to try and do enough to discredit the entire vote?
"a high usage of mail-in ballots"? I assume you do not know or are ignoring the fact Colorado, Hawaii, Oregon, Utah, and Washington State conduct their elections entirely by mail. No doubt these are hotbeds of fraud

Looks like the final result in the electoral college will be Biden 306 versus Trump 229, in 2016 Trump received 304 and Clinton 227.
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  #2733  
Old 11.11.2020, 11:02
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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It is amazing how so many fall for the "election fraud" argument when there is so far zero evidence for it.

I guess the Trump strategy is working.
And that's the thing, I think... When someone wants there to be evidence of election fraud, they will create it -- or create the illusion of it, rather. It's all about perception trumping facts (no pun intended). And that is exactly what Trump has been doing. He's the puppet master of his followers' perceptions. And he was setting the stage for what's happening now even prior to the election -- implanting the idea that mail-in ballots lead to election fraud.

He could probably convince his supporters that the US is about to be attacked by Mexico, and his supporters would instinctively believe it, without questioning its truth or validity. And he knows it.
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  #2734  
Old 11.11.2020, 11:16
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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Well, as far as I know, a situation with a US President refusing to leave office after losing an election is unprecedented, so it's hard to say how this is going to end. I do think that him being overthrown (forcibly removed from office) seems unlikely, but in all honesty, considering his increasingly irrational behavior and now him suddenly putting Trump loyalists at the head of the Department of Defense, I think one has to consider a very real possibility of him needing to be forcibly removed from office in some way or another. He's already made it quite clear that he's refusing a peaceful surrender of power.
Overthrowing is forcibly removing from power, not from office. If I show up in any office and refuse to leave, taking me out by force is not overthrowing. Trumps presidential power will probably end in January, and if he refuses to leave he might be taken out of the building by force, but this is not being overthrown. Unless you suggest that he should be removed by force before January 20th?
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  #2735  
Old 11.11.2020, 11:19
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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...and your evidence for this claim is...? I guess exactly as much as Trump has so far provided - none. Oh and anyway your claim is a contradiction in terms - if they find voter fraud on a significant scale it would by definition be enough to overturn some of the results.


Mail-in voting seems to work perfectly well here in Switzerland.
Voter fraud takes place on a significant scale in UK elections thanks to postal voting. For whatever reason no one feels the need to investigate it (likely because politicians feel it suits them). Most countries donít allow postal voting for exactly this reason. Vote in person, with a valid ID, and we wouldnít even be having this conversation.

Iím sure evidence will be provided firstly because postal voting is so open to fraud, and secondly, because itís the US. Letís see what evidence gets brought before the courts.

https://www.newsweek.com/voting-frau...pinion-1522535
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Old 11.11.2020, 11:28
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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Voter fraud takes place on a significant scale in UK elections thanks to postal voting. For whatever reason no one feels the need to investigate it (likely because politicians feel it suits them). Most countries don’t allow postal voting for exactly this reason. Vote in person, with a valid ID, and we wouldn’t even be having this conversation.

I’m sure evidence will be provided firstly because postal voting is so open to fraud, and secondly, because it’s the US. Let’s see what evidence gets brought before the courts.

https://www.newsweek.com/voting-frau...pinion-1522535
The author of this article is surely a trustworthy and balanced source.

"John R. Lott, Jr. is the president of the Crime Prevention Research Center and the author of the new book, Gun Control Myths."

Clicking on the amazon link to get a preview of the fascinating gun book I read the following:

"From myths about mass public shootings to suicides to gun ownership rates and crime to gun free zones, Lott addresses the claims you frequently hear in the media and explains what is wrong with those claims. “John Lott has been giving us the facts about guns for decades. Finally clear to all that one party in America has an anti-Second Amendment platform and wants to disarm you. Now you need to arm yourself with the Truth. Buy and read Gun Control Myths today. Before it’s too late.” Sebastian Gorka Ph.D.,host of AMERICAN First, former Strategist to President Trump “

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  #2737  
Old 11.11.2020, 11:35
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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Voter fraud takes place on a significant scale in UK elections thanks to postal voting. For whatever reason no one feels the need to investigate it (likely because politicians feel it suits them). Most countries donít allow postal voting for exactly this reason. Vote in person, with a valid ID, and we wouldnít even be having this conversation.

Iím sure evidence will be provided firstly because postal voting is so open to fraud, and secondly, because itís the US. Letís see what evidence gets brought before the courts.

https://www.newsweek.com/voting-frau...pinion-1522535
There are just no widespread reports of voter fraud in the US. People have tried. The NYTimes contacted every state to see if there were instances of voter fraud. Nothing significant or systemic.

I know nothing about the UK, so would not extrapolate.

Who is this guy you cite?
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  #2738  
Old 11.11.2020, 11:38
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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Overthrowing is forcibly removing from power, not from office. If I show up in any office and refuse to leave, taking me out by force is not overthrowing. Trumps presidential power will probably end in January, and if he refuses to leave he might be taken out of the building by force, but this is not being overthrown. Unless you suggest that he should be removed by force before January 20th?
I understand what you mean, but Trump could very well attempt to cling to power and have that backed by the GOP as well as roughly half the country. If he continues to claim that he won the election and refuse a peaceful surrender of power and a peaceful transition to Biden, then he may at some point need to be forcibly removed from power -- and particularly if his behavior continues to become increasingly irrational over the next few months, prior to inauguration. As it is now, we already see him using his position as POTUS to try to carry out some kind of revenge vendetta (and in my opinion, much of his presidency has been precisely that).

So I was using the term "overthrown" according to its literal definition -- not necessarily only in the typical sense of the word that we usually think of when a dictator is overthrown while legitimately still in office (and not necessarily a violent removal of power). We can only hope it doesn't come to that!
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  #2739  
Old 11.11.2020, 11:45
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

Honestly, at this point, I could really see Trump being led out of the White House in handcuffs.

One of the things I have become forced to realize about Trump is that... Just when I think it all couldn't possibly become any more bizarre, it does.
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  #2740  
Old 11.11.2020, 11:58
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?



If the unprecedented happens - Trump refuses to accept the election and triggers a constitutional crisis, there is indeed a scenario in which he could, through legal loopholes, be sworn in as next president.

The senior Republicans are the ones who really need to step up right now, but I suspect they won't say anything significant until the totals are certified and whatever legal challenges there are flame out.

I'm pretty confident that they'll give him the boot but still - it's worrisome.
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