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View Poll Results: Who will win the US election?
Trump/Pence 11 52.38%
Biden/Harris 10 47.62%
Voters: 21. You may not vote on this poll

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  #3761  
Old 08.01.2021, 16:23
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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Where I come from it's the gun rack.

To offer some perspective into how Trump's fans think, here's something a friend shared on social media. I know a lot of people dismiss Trumpers as stupid and crazy. Still, if Democrats and Republicans fail to at least try and understand this mentality, nothing is going to improve or change. Dismissing it as nutty and crazy isn't going to move the country forward.
I don’t think they are stupid or crazy necessarily. I struggle to understand their logic and thought processes.
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  #3762  
Old 08.01.2021, 16:27
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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... I fundamentally disagree with just about every single opinion he has shared here, but I don't need to attack his integrity or his values because of that.
A person's opinions are usually based on their values.

If someone has immoral principles (not saying that TC does or doesn't) then why can't that be attacked?

There was someone else here (I think they are now banned but they were definitely in the TC/MC camp) who wrote on the COVID thread, "When will all of this be over so I can stop pretending to wash my hands?".

That's not an opinion. That is someone who lacks integrity. It's someone with immoral values.

Can that not be mentioned?
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  #3763  
Old 08.01.2021, 16:39
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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Where I come from it's the gun rack.

To offer some perspective into how Trump's fans think, here's something a friend shared on social media. I know a lot of people dismiss Trumpers as stupid and crazy. Still, if Democrats and Republicans fail to at least try and understand this mentality, nothing is going to improve or change. Dismissing it as nutty and crazy isn't going to move the country forward.
And yet, so many of the points in that list that your friend shared are just plain nutty and crazy... and provably false! Some are outright lies (à la Trump), some are matters of opinion, one or two may even be true (but immaterial), once again in accordance with the hackneyed old adage about a stopped clock.

It's yet another example of a brainwashed, dedicated Trumper simply spouting whatever s/he has been told to believe, without any critical thought going into the process. And certainly without any fact checking.
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  #3764  
Old 08.01.2021, 16:54
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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As I see I'm the only one who can be interpreted to be "defending" Tony, I didn't expect I would have to explain myself when trying to keep a discussion civil. A good discussion doesn't need to resort to ad hominem. It not only escalates too easily in an online forum, but it degrades the quality of the conversation and the value of the thread. Not to mention it completely derails the topic. I prefer to focus on the event itself, and not spend 4 pages browsing whodunnit posts.

Tony, as much as any one of us, is entitled to his opinion without any of us calling him names. I fundamentally disagree with just about every single opinion he has shared here, but I don't need to attack his integrity or his values because of that. We can easily stick to the letter of what we write, and at one point simply agree to disagree. Dragging back-and-forth accusations for pages on is exactly that...a drag.

And that is why I explained how I interpreted his posts, which can be easily construed as defending him.

And this is an attempt at a wholesale dressing down.
  #3765  
Old 08.01.2021, 16:56
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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Where I come from it's the gun rack.

To offer some perspective into how Trump's fans think, here's something a friend shared on social media. I know a lot of people dismiss Trumpers as stupid and crazy. Still, if Democrats and Republicans fail to at least try and understand this mentality, nothing is going to improve or change. Dismissing it as nutty and crazy isn't going to move the country forward.
Simply put, one cannot dismiss 74 million people, that not only voted for him, but voted for him after 4 years of his presidency. In spite of everything that happened since 2016, his support grew by a fifth! Lord knows how, but he has found a way to resonate with millions of Americans who felt the system wasn't working for them. Many of those even know he's not fit for office, yet voted for him anyway!

To look at his record, he also repaid their faith, certainly his middle class and blue collar supporters. Poverty has dropped, inequality has narrowed. American incomes rose five times as much as they did during eight years of President Obama, and this wasn't just the billionaires, those that did best were those at the bottom of the pecking order, low and middle income workers.*

A lot rests now with President Elect Biden, people need to start at least trying to understand that mentality, because to ignore it would be to do so at America's peril.

*pre-Covid
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  #3766  
Old 08.01.2021, 16:58
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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I really don't think that even this bunch with their formidable arsenal of zip ties and a pipe bomb in their wildest dreams, actually thought they would "seize power" ..

Disrupt a meeting that was taking place - yes
Do some vandalism - yes
Make a point - yes
Get on TV (again) - hell absolutely yes

But I doubt if they intended to seize power. Even if they'd actually entered and secured themselves inside, even with hostages, they wouldn't have seized anything other than the building and a death sentence.
I don't know. I think they did actually believe that. I was watching a video earlier where a British journalist was inside the Capitol building, filming, as it was under siege and was interviewing some of the people inside. Most of them thought they were starting a revolution and were completely irate, claiming that the U.S. was THEIR country and that it had been stolen from them (and that is exactly what Trump had been telling them in his speech earlier that day) and that they were there to take it back. That video of the journalist inside the Capitol can be seen here:

https://twitter.com/i/status/1346952339886923786

You can see at the beginning that the crazy QAnon dude with the dead animal hat (or whatever the hell that thing is) was actually hanging his flag from a spear. Apparently, many of them had weapons of some sort.

So what exactly do people think would have happened if this irate mob had entered the room when all those members of Congress were still in there? They were obviously outnumbered. Even the police weren't able to control them. I mean, clearly they wouldn't be able to actually seize power over the US, but what do people really think would have happened if they had encountered all those Congress members when they entered that room?

Last edited by Pancakes; 08.01.2021 at 17:16.
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  #3767  
Old 08.01.2021, 16:58
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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And this is an attempt at a wholesale dressing down.
Not familiar with the expression. What do you mean?
  #3768  
Old 08.01.2021, 17:04
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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If someone has immoral principles (not saying that TC does or doesn't) then why can't that be attacked?
I think it certainly can. I don't think this is the case here.

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"When will all of this be over so I can stop pretending to wash my hands?".

That's not an opinion. That is someone who lacks integrity. It's someone with immoral values. Can that not be mentioned?
I would. That is not an opinion though, that is an action that endangers others.
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Hmm, I'll just pretend I didn't read your post aimed at California Dreamer....
Yes, I called him a "loonie". I totally own to that. Reprehensible, sure. But I am human, and I make mistakes like everyone else.

In my defense, that user is a scientific illiterate who is also extremely arrogant and condescending with his conspiracy-theory beliefs, making him particularly annoying. Crappy defense, but that's my excuse.

Last edited by Caleb; 08.01.2021 at 18:06.
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  #3769  
Old 08.01.2021, 17:15
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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To offer some perspective into how Trump's fans think, here's something a friend shared on social media. I know a lot of people dismiss Trumpers as stupid and crazy. Still, if Democrats and Republicans fail to at least try and understand this mentality, nothing is going to improve or change. Dismissing it as nutty and crazy isn't going to move the country forward.
Trump is an eloquent speaker in one sense, that he knows exactly the phrases people want to hear and says or repeats them at the right time. It doesn't matter a bit what those phrases are and whether they mean anything.
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  #3770  
Old 08.01.2021, 17:17
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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As for the comments defending TC. Ugh.
This thread and this forum in general can do well if we stop "groaning" and "thanking" specific people and instead focus on what is being said. There are a few points which Tony Clifton made here and with which I have agreed too. He has also made others with which I have disagreed. This is not a reason to dismiss the person.

Do the following exercise: try to read an opinion first and only THEN look at the name of the poster. I've been doing this for a while and it's quite revealing.

Just to be clear I find it ridiculous to call this poor Cosplay a coup. At the same time I also find it ridiculous to downplay the situation. In the end, the naming convention doesn't really matter as whatever we call it, it won't change the nature of the fact would it? And it's now over anyway
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  #3771  
Old 08.01.2021, 17:20
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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Trump is an eloquent speaker in one sense, that he knows exactly the phrases people want to hear and says or repeats them at the right time. It doesn't matter a bit what those phrases are and whether they mean anything.
Psychopaths are master manipulators. It reminds me in some ways of how Manson was able to manipulate his cult of followers.

"The key to Manson’s control, as with all cult leaders, was to ensure that followers not only saw him as an all-powerful, messiah-like figure, but that followers see themselves as members of a superior elite that has the answer to the world’s problems – even if that means killing the rest of the world along the way. Manson persuaded his followers to commit murders to trigger “Helter Skelter” where there would be a “race war” which would elevate him to world leadership. He espoused a rambling, incoherent apocalyptic world view that was nevertheless completing captivating for his followers."

https://theconversation.com/how-cult...t-murder-70961
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  #3772  
Old 08.01.2021, 17:25
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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A person's opinions are usually based on their values.

If someone has immoral principles (not saying that TC does or doesn't) then why can't that be attacked?

There was someone else here (I think they are now banned but they were definitely in the TC/MC camp) who wrote on the COVID thread, "When will all of this be over so I can stop pretending to wash my hands?".

That's not an opinion. That is someone who lacks integrity. It's someone with immoral values.

Can that not be mentioned?
Yup, it most certainly can be said and is done in political and journalistic debates worldwide without being considered an "ad hominem" attack. In the end if that is your cast-iron opinion that someone is a person of low principle and integrity, then that's the way it is and you should be able to voice that.
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  #3773  
Old 08.01.2021, 17:55
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

Trump is not going to the inauguration.
Probably for the best.
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  #3774  
Old 08.01.2021, 18:04
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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Poverty has dropped, inequality has narrowed. American incomes rose five times as much as they did during eight years of President Obama, and this wasn't just the billionaires, those that did best were those at the bottom of the pecking order, low and middle income workers.
I don't agree with your statements, which although partly true are misleading. Poverty is closely correlated to unemployment, which has been on a steep downward slope for over 10 years.



This is NOT Trump, this is a long trend.

Regarding inequality, it depends on how you measure it. Economically this is probably not the case. Socially speaking, Obama issued laws to protect borrowers of payday loans, which Trump has . Trump has also increased inequality by blocking transgender people from federally funded single-sex or sex-segregated homeless shelters (in May 2019), by blocking access to birth control, limiting SNAP food stamps (the Republicans aim at slashing nearly 680'000 people off the SNAP program), not to mention the healthcare fiasco. I really think Trump if anything has increased inequality.
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  #3775  
Old 08.01.2021, 18:07
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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Simply put, one cannot dismiss 74 million people, that not only voted for him, but voted for him after 4 years of his presidency. In spite of everything that happened since 2016, his support grew by a fifth! Lord knows how, but he has found a way to resonate with millions of Americans who felt the system wasn't working for them. Many of those even know he's not fit for office, yet voted for him anyway!

To look at his record, he also repaid their faith, certainly his middle class and blue collar supporters. Poverty has dropped, inequality has narrowed. American incomes rose five times as much as they did during eight years of President Obama, and this wasn't just the billionaires, those that did best were those at the bottom of the pecking order, low and middle income workers.*

A lot rests now with President Elect Biden, people need to start at least trying to understand that mentality, because to ignore it would be to do so at America's peril.

*pre-Covid
As usual nothing to substantiate your claims and mostly lies or distortions. At best Trump only continued trends what were already well established under Obama.

If you can exclude Covid from Trump's record then the first couple of years of Obama should also be taken our of the record, dominated as they were by the financial crisis he inherited. In fact you shold really only judge any president economically starting from at least 2 years in.

Fact is, once the 2008/9 crisis and covid are taken out of the equation (one correction each to be fair), incomes rose at pretty much the same rate under both and inequality stayed fundimentally the same under both.

Interesting how you are so concerned about Trump's 74 million voters but apparently have no regard for the 80 million that voted for Biden. I guess that as with the Washington rioters this is because they are other people and
don't count.

I don't recall you bothering about the majority that voted for Clinton last time round either.

A couple of quick links for further reading

https://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...obama-economy/
https://chs.vcu.edu/archive/election...nequality.html
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  #3776  
Old 08.01.2021, 18:09
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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There are several copies of the electoral college votes, so, no problem certifying. I watched part of the state verification process and I think they talked about 5 or 6 copies. When the congress went into hiding, it’s likely the votes went with them.

I think a lot congressional peeps were pretty frightened, and the presence of zip ties suggested to them the possibility of hostage taking.

Call it what you want, coup, riot, terrorism....it doesn’t matter. ..it was a mob of individuals, some of whom were incited to commit illegal acts. People in a mob don’t act very clearly and their actions can be amplified by each other. I believe it was a potentially dangerous mob.

Oh, and the guy with the Buffalo horns is some sort of qanon shaman.
Not only the Dems talking about a coup
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Former Trump national security council member Fiona Hill is blasting the president following the chaos that broke out at the Capitol on Wednesday evening, when pro-Trump rioters attempted to stop Congress from certifying President-elect Joe Biden's Electoral College victory.

“The president was trying to stage a coup," Hill said in an interview with the Daily Beast published Thursday.
It is clear that Trump's wish was to stay as President and somewhere in his other world he believed this approach could achieve it no matter how impractical in reality.

Did you look closely at the guy with the Buffalo horns? He had a huge double-headed axe hanging on his belt, and some people here claimed "mostly unarmed".
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  #3777  
Old 08.01.2021, 18:14
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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I don’t think they are stupid or crazy necessarily. I struggle to understand their logic and thought processes.

we all struggle to understand their logic but maybe this tries to sum it up...


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  #3778  
Old 08.01.2021, 18:15
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I don’t think they are stupid or crazy necessarily. I struggle to understand their logic and thought processes.
Well, some of them clearly are - both.
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Old 08.01.2021, 18:21
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Poor Elisabeth from Tennessee. Partaking in a revolution was never going to be easy.

https://twitter.com/hunterw/status/1346919171595137025

Bless her.
This is mind-boggling.

These people don't seem to understand that they are confessing to federal crimes on TV while I bet they celebrated when - amid the BLM riots last year - Trump passed an Executive Order that makes this punishable by 10 years in prison.
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Old 08.01.2021, 18:24
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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As I see I'm the only one who can be interpreted to be "defending" Tony, I didn't expect I would have to explain myself when trying to keep a discussion civil. A good discussion doesn't need to resort to ad hominem. It not only escalates too easily in an online forum, but it degrades the quality of the conversation and the value of the thread. Not to mention it completely derails the topic. I prefer to focus on the event itself, and not spend 4 pages browsing whodunnit posts.

Tony, as much as any one of us, is entitled to his opinion without any of us calling him names. I fundamentally disagree with just about every single opinion he has shared here, but I don't need to attack his integrity or his values because of that. We can easily stick to the letter of what we write, and at one point simply agree to disagree. Dragging back-and-forth accusations for pages on is exactly that...a drag.

And that is why I explained how I interpreted his posts, which can be easily construed as defending him.
This. Thanks.

The whole quasi-putch looks allowed on purpose to me and I wonder why. Is US reality TV not offering enough adrenaline? I disagree with any riots for any reason, btw. I don't find them in any way constructive.
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