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Old 13.01.2021, 15:11
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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I understand that it was sudden and violent, but these idiots had no ideas on seizing power. Stealing a lectern and occupying a government building does not cease the existence of the government. A lot of their slogans show they wanted to do something, but I don't think any of them actually thought out the how.
I do not believe there was any criminal ever who escaped being judged guilty on the grounds they were incompetent to complete the crime.
It would be like letting safe breakers go free if they actually failed to open the safe.
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Old 13.01.2021, 15:11
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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I understand that it was sudden and violent, but these idiots had no ideas on seizing power. Stealing a lectern and occupying a government building does not cease the existence of the government. A lot of their slogans show they they wanted to do something, but I don't think any of them actually thought out the how.
I don't think the average person who stole a flatscreen TV from Target had any clear idea how that was going to put right the murder of George Floyd.
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Old 13.01.2021, 15:13
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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A stunt gone wrong?
Not a stunt, a bunch of angry people who can't accept something lashing out at a symbol. Protest turned riot, same way some people think that breaking a banks windows is a fight against capitalism. Whats screwed up is that instead of a leader shouting through a megaphone egging them on it was the president on a stage.
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Old 13.01.2021, 15:14
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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I do not believe there was any criminal ever who escaped being judged guilty on the grounds they were incompetent to complete the crime.
It would be like letting safe breakers go free if they actually failed to open the safe.
If you set out to murder somebody but it turns out you are too incompetent to fire the gun, then you hardly get found guilty of murder.
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Old 13.01.2021, 15:19
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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I do not believe there was any criminal ever who escaped being judged guilty on the grounds they were incompetent to complete the crime.
It would be like letting safe breakers go free if they actually failed to open the safe.
Not again Marton, you read what I write, and you decide that I think nobody should be prosecuted. They've committed multiple crimes, but I don't think sedition will be leveled at anybody in a court.
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Old 13.01.2021, 15:20
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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Honestly, this is about as relevant to the overthrow of government as the hooligans attempting to change the results of a football game. Similar organisational abilities, similar results. Violence, death and destruction.
Well, I think the majority of political correspondents within the western world appear disagree with you. However, I am sure you have more expertise in this particular area.
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Old 13.01.2021, 15:22
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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Not a stunt, a bunch of angry people who can't accept something lashing out at a symbol. Protest turned riot, same way some people think that breaking a banks windows is a fight against capitalism. Whats screwed up is that instead of a leader shouting through a megaphone egging them on it was the president on a stage.
The thing is that he's been doing that for years, all of a sudden a group of ... decided to act. Why blame him to start with, now. A few days before he's out. That puts the innactivity in question, will make more groups attempt the same, especially when it completely par hasard is coordinated with Twitter/FB/YT. This frantic move just pushes any concilliation/constructive anything way into the future and basically kills the 1st 2 years of Biden's term. If he's in fact meant to hold the office that long.

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  #4008  
Old 13.01.2021, 15:25
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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I understand that it was sudden and violent, but these idiots had no ideas on seizing power. Stealing a lectern and occupying a government building does not cease the existence of the government. A lot of their slogans show they they wanted to do something, but I don't think any of them actually thought out the how.
I don't know... I think the guy wandering around looking for Pence with zip-ties in his hand and the ones who hung a noose outside probably had some form or agenda or else why would they do what they did? There is footage of masses of them wandering the halls of the Capitol, screaming "Where are they???" (looking for the Congress members) and screaming "Hang Mike Pence!"

It's amazing how some of you people try to downplay what happened -- as though it wasn't a big deal because only one police officer was killed? Or is it because they didn't actually succeed in tying up politicians and setting off their explosives?

So I agree that the rioters are idiots, but so are most people who commit acts of violence.
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  #4009  
Old 13.01.2021, 15:25
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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I understand that it was sudden and violent, but these idiots had no ideas on seizing power. Stealing a lectern and occupying a government building does not cease the existence of the government. A lot of their slogans show they they wanted to do something, but I don't think any of them actually thought out the how.
I think a great deal of them had thought it out. Isn't the general consensus that they were hunting for Pence and McDonnell?

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Honestly, I think some of you guys just need to spend a little more time reading the news each day and inform yourselves better. There were very organised elements to the capitol riots that been discussing it online since weeks. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-b1784703.html



Whether their methods were intelligent or realistic enough to change the course of democracy is not the point... it's their goals and intentions that made it an attempted coup.
This. 100%.

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Honestly, this is about as relevant to the overthrow of government as the hooligans attempting to change the results of a football game. Similar organisational abilities, similar results. Violence, death and destruction.
No, it is not. I find it extraordinary that this is what you've taken away from what happened.

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A stunt gone wrong?
FFS.

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Not again Marton, you read what I write, and you decide that I think nobody should be prosecuted. They've committed multiple crimes, but I don't think sedition will be leveled at anybody in a court.

Sedition is exactly what it was.
  #4010  
Old 13.01.2021, 15:31
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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Not again Marton, you read what I write, and you decide that I think nobody should be prosecuted. They've committed multiple crimes, but I don't think sedition will be leveled at anybody in a court.
Well, there is already one such charge leveled in court;
Democrats in the House of Representatives have introduced a single article of impeachment against President Trump, charging him with "incitement of insurrection" over Wednesday's violence at the U.S. Capitol.

They are keeping the door open for sedition charges
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Acting U.S. Attorney Michael Sherwin said the Justice Department was considering bringing sedition charges against some of the rioters, effectively accusing them of attempting to overthrow or defeat the government.
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Old 13.01.2021, 15:34
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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The thing is that he's been doing that for years, all of a sudden a group of ... decided to act. Why blame him to start with, now. A few days before he's out. That puts the innactivity in question, will make more groups attempt the same, especially when it completely par hasard is coordinated with Twitter/FB/YB. This frantic move just pushes any concilliation/constructive anything way into the future and basically kills the 1st 2 years of Biden's term. If he's in fact meant to hold the office that long.
Did you not see the speech Trump gave that morning?
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Old 13.01.2021, 15:36
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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Well, I think the majority of political correspondents within the western world appear disagree with you. However, I am sure you have more expertise in this particular area.
I've no more expertise than you pretend to. From a quick scan of articles it appears different experts see it differently.

Googled coup vs riot. The top few articles, I've no idea the leanings of the below.

QZ - Biden calls it an insurrection, others call it a coup, nobody agrees.
Washington Post - Insurrection not a coup
NYT- Coup attempt
FP - Not a coup but looks like one.

I'm guessing coup sounds cooler than insurrection.
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Old 13.01.2021, 15:54
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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Well, I think the majority of political correspondents within the western world appear disagree with you. However, I am sure you have more expertise in this particular area.
Better read from the source rather than the opinion of a journalist who happens to know as much as you, or me.

The FBI itself is not clear as many of those charges have been brought against what the FBI has termed “aspirational” rather than “intentional” coup plotters, who may have talked the language of violent overthrow without any real plan to follow through.

More worryingly, they seem to be trying to establish whether there was a coordinated money flow to some of the protesters (nothing so far) and trying to identify who planted the two bombs (which did not explode for unknown reasons). So far, the jury is still out there.


https://www.ft.com/content/57d4b542-...1-3ae8838d2754
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Old 13.01.2021, 16:47
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

Here is a nice long thread that puts together stuff published elsewhere to show how this riot was very well organized behind the scenes. On stage, the ignorant pawns played their part well.

https://threader.app/thread/1349142068061478912

Incidentally, the masked zip tie guy, Eric Munchel, turns out to be a big pussy, despite his expensive combat gear. He was there with his mother .
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Old 13.01.2021, 16:54
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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Better read from the source rather than the opinion of a journalist who happens to know as much as you, or me.

The FBI itself is not clear as many of those charges have been brought against what the FBI has termed “aspirational” rather than “intentional” coup plotters, who may have talked the language of violent overthrow without any real plan to follow through.

More worryingly, they seem to be trying to establish whether there was a coordinated money flow to some of the protesters (nothing so far) and trying to identify who planted the two bombs (which did not explode for unknown reasons). So far, the jury is still out there.


https://www.ft.com/content/57d4b542-...1-3ae8838d2754
They weren't really even given the option or opportunity to "follow through." Congress members were evacuated as the rioters were trying to break in the doors into the main Hall where they had been trying to certify the electoral votes. The National Guard was called in and eventually managed to stop the riots.

What do people think would have happened if the rioters had managed to enter the Congressional hall while the Congress members were still in there? Or if the National Guard had never been called in? Do they seriously think that this guy would have just sat down and taken a selfie and then quietly left?

Name:  zip ties.jpg
Views: 147
Size:  97.4 KB

I think it's pretty clear that some of the rioters were a bit more serious than others in terms of what lengths they were willing to go to and what levels of violence they were willing to resort to. But the fact is, there was a violent riot on the Capitol building, where rioters attacked the Capitol Police and forced their way in, in an attempt to stop the certification of electoral votes; and one police officer was killed while many others were wounded.
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Old 13.01.2021, 16:56
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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Incidentally, the masked zip tie guy, Eric Munchel, turns out to be a big pussy, despite his expensive combat gear. He was there with his mother .
They usually are. Just like the "Bull horn" dude and some of the others who are now trying to play the victim. They were there under delusions of righteousness and irrational rage, and now that they're facing the reality of federal charges against them, most of them are trying to change the story and say that they weren't there with the intention of being violent. Gee, then maybe they shouldn't have forced their way through barricades set up to protect the Capitol building, assault police officers, broken windows to get into the building and steal shit and break shit, etc.?

They bear some striking resemblances to their cult leader in their ability to change the story and play the victim and in their refusal to acknowledge any accountability for their own behavior.
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Old 13.01.2021, 17:10
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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I've no more expertise than you pretend to. From a quick scan of articles it appears different experts see it differently.

Googled coup vs riot. The top few articles, I've no idea the leanings of the below.

QZ - Biden calls it an insurrection, others call it a coup, nobody agrees.
Washington Post - Insurrection not a coup
NYT- Coup attempt
FP - Not a coup but looks like one.

I'm guessing coup sounds cooler than insurrection.
If it makes you happy, I am OK to go with following Congress by using insurrection, not a coup.

I believe agreeing on our understanding of what they actually did and where is more important than choosing the best descriptive word.

The DOJ is talking about hundreds of prosecutions so better to wait a while to see the outcome.
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Old 13.01.2021, 17:22
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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If it makes you happy, I am OK to go with following Congress by using insurrection, not a coup.

I believe agreeing on our understanding of what they actually did and where is more important than choosing the best descriptive word.

The DOJ is talking about hundreds of prosecutions so better to wait a while to see the outcome.
I feel hollow inside. I thought this would make me happy but I've spent to much energy on semantics.

I think we're in agreement on the rest. Lock them up. Possibly for sedition as you pointed out.
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Old 13.01.2021, 18:03
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If you set out to murder somebody but it turns out you are too incompetent to fire the gun, then you hardly get found guilty of murder.
Likely you would be found guilty of attempted murder
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Old 13.01.2021, 18:05
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Likely you would be found guilty of attempted murder
it's the sideshow bob defense

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