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View Poll Results: Who will win the US election?
Trump/Pence 11 52.38%
Biden/Harris 10 47.62%
Voters: 21. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1441  
Old 22.10.2020, 09:19
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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....and vice versa! Whoever is not on board with hate speech, misogyny and racism is labeled marxist, anti-capitalist, woketivists and toxic feminist....
Exactly, makes life so much easier doesn't it? Why bother dealing with the actual content of a message when putting the sender in some premade boxes is so much easier?
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  #1442  
Old 22.10.2020, 09:21
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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That doesn't mean much

One year ago I was sure that Trump will never be reelectet, now weeks before I am not so sure about it.
Because it is not about Trump. It is about what the Trump's voters want. It is simple math. Everyone focuses on Trump instead of focusing on why people voted for him. Those aren't identical concepts at all. One can say that Trump's dumb and be done with it. But to say that all those millions who voted for him are dumb...isn't gonna cut it. That volume is too high to shrug it off as a brainfart. But people are happy just yelling how dumb Trump is and think that it is enough to change the minds of million voters. What Trump opponents do define the future more than any elaborate analysis on why Trump's ill suited. So posturing on how one feels about Trump - is entirely missing the point. Let's focus on what Trump supporters want and need and how it will happen and via whom. That would be more productive, imho. Kinda Swiss style. Neutrally.
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  #1443  
Old 22.10.2020, 09:33
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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Because it is not about Trump. It is about what the Trump's voters want. It is simple math. Everyone focuses on Trump instead of focusing on why people voted for him. Those aren't identical concepts at all. One can say that Trump's dumb and be done with it. But to say that all those millions who voted for him are dumb...isn't gonna cut it. That volume is too high to shrug it off as a brainfart. But people are happy just yelling how dumb Trump is and think that it is enough to change the minds of million voters. What Trump opponents do define the future more than any elaborate analysis on why Trump's ill suited. So posturing on how one feels about Trump - is entirely missing the point. Let's focus on what Trump supporters want and need and how it will happen and via whom. That would be more productive, imho. Kinda Swiss style. Neutrally.
I wrote something similar four years ago right after the election as well. Listen to the "moderates" who voted for trump because he at least pretended to listen and care about them.
That was four year ago. As far as I'm concerned, he succesfully proved that he is absolutely not able to lead this country with a sustainable legislation or even a basic strategy. So even if I was still convinced that Trump tries to improve my life, by now it should have become obvious that he lacks both, the mental capacity and the political tools to do so.
  #1444  
Old 22.10.2020, 09:44
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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I wrote something similar four years ago right after the election as well.
I remember.

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So even if I was still convinced that Trump tries to improve my life, by now it should have become obvious that he lacks both, the mental capacity and the political tools to do so.
That is again about him.

I think analyzing what his voters really want and need (I doubt he is godlike to them, yanks are very independent to give up their identity for somebody else, imho, very few I know idolize...well maybe I know people not representative of the population, who knows), is the way forward.

People need transparency. Biden betted on that but it isn't working out for him so far, I think. People are tired of identity politics and being shouted down. People want positivity and doing stuff together, construct. Build. Not why things aren't working and how their leader is dumb.
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  #1445  
Old 22.10.2020, 09:44
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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Exactly, makes life so much easier doesn't it? Why bother dealing with the actual content of a message when putting the sender in some premade boxes is so much easier?
I guess it depends on the message. But, as a general rule - if you're posting crap expect to be called out. Not everyone is polite and that is unfortunate, however, in my experience polite people are often dismissed and bullied so I guess I developed some sort of tolerance to these labels and an understanding for people who use them....when they are warranted, of course.
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  #1446  
Old 22.10.2020, 09:55
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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That is again about him.
In november, people have to write a name on their ballot (or cross or whatever). So you can't take the person out of the picture completely.

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I think analyzing what his voters really want and need (I doubt he is godlike to them, yanks are very independent to give up their identity for somebody else, imho, very few I know idolize...well maybe I know people not representative of the population, who knows), is the way forward.
In the best case they want food, affordable education, health care, social and job security and a thriving economy. From a distance, it feels like they want to win over the libtards no mater what.
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Old 22.10.2020, 09:58
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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In the best case they want food, affordable education, health care, social and job security and a thriving economy. From a distance, it feels like they want to win over the libtards no mater what.
No, affordable education and health care is associated with socialism in the Trump supporters' world. I think it's the latter. It might be a reaction to identity politics or rather, a certain way to promote equality, but I doubt that everyone has actually a proper knowledge on how these policies work. As I see it it's more a reaction to what they think it's a toxic ideology. Reality is much more nuanced, of course.
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Old 22.10.2020, 10:37
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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No, affordable education and health care is associated with socialism in the Trump supporters' world. I think it's the latter. It might be a reaction to identity politics or rather, a certain way to promote equality, but I doubt that everyone has actually a proper knowledge on how these policies work. As I see it it's more a reaction to what they think it's a toxic ideology. Reality is much more nuanced, of course.
The affordable education and health care isn't what turns them off; it's the idea that they have to provide it for the rest of the world too.
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Old 22.10.2020, 10:55
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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The affordable education and health care isn't what turns them off; it's the idea that they have to provide it for the rest of the world too.
Agree, they probably don't mind being on the receiving end, they do care if they're on the giving end.

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Because it is not about Trump. It is about what the Trump's voters want. It is simple math. Everyone focuses on Trump instead of focusing on why people voted for him.
I'm not so sure it's quite like that. Bear with me for a few lines:

In my opinion the root of the issue lies on the bipartisan model: there aren't still any viable "options", so either they vote democrat (which groups all liberals and moderates, from left to center) or republican (which groups all conservatives, from center to right). So Trump's voters include middle-class or affluent households which are simply conservative, or right-wing supporters, all the way to far-right groups. So into the bag go both regular conservative voters (who believe in small government, deregulation, free-market) and extreme right-wing racist bigots. All into the same pot, which also applies to democract voters, both who believe in moderate regulation of some marketplaces, reasonable distribution of social care burden, wide healthcare coverage independently of income, along with much more left-leaning socialist proponents.

Of course not all Trump's voters are like these guys, although I would assume all of these will/would vote for Trump:







I don't think anyone looked down at the GOP's supporters pre-Trump quite as collectively as much as today. And it has to do with him and his divisive rhetoric.

And that's why I think Trump gets SO much flak from non-supporters, WAY more than any previous conservative politician in US history.
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Old 22.10.2020, 10:58
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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I remember.

That is again about him.

I think analyzing what his voters really want and need (I doubt he is godlike to them, yanks are very independent to give up their identity for somebody else, imho, very few I know idolize...well maybe I know people not representative of the population, who knows), is the way forward.

People need transparency. Biden betted on that but it isn't working out for him so far, I think. People are tired of identity politics and being shouted down. People want positivity and doing stuff together, construct. Build. Not why things aren't working and how their leader is dumb.
True that people want a constructive approach.
So far Biden is the only one who has clearly stated what he plans to do in his term, Trump has not yet.

Trump has campaigned on his pre coronavirus successes and is spreading conspiracy theories.
  #1451  
Old 22.10.2020, 10:59
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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Agree, they probably don't mind being on the receiving end, they do care if they're on the giving end.



I'm not so sure it's quite like that. Bear with me for a few lines:

In my opinion the root of the issue lies on the bipartisan model: there aren't still any viable "options", so either they vote democrat (which groups all liberals and moderates, from left to center) or republican (which groups all conservatives, from center to right). So Trump's voters include middle-class or affluent households which are simply conservative, or right-wing supporters, all the way to far-right groups. So into the bag go both regular conservative voters (who believe in small government, deregulation, free-market) and extreme right-wing racist bigots. All into the same pot, which also applies to democract voters, both who believe in moderate regulation of some marketplaces, reasonable distribution of social care burden, wide healthcare coverage independently of income, along with much more left-leaning socialist proponents.

Of course not all Trump's voters are like these guys, although I would assume all of these will/would vote for Trump:

I don't think anyone looked down at the GOP's supporters pre-Trump quite as collectively as much as today. And it has to do with him and his divisive rhetoric.

And that's why I think Trump gets SO much flak from non-supporters, WAY more than any previous conservative politician in US history.
You know you could just as easily exchange all those pictures for BLM/Antifa types tearing up and burning down cities. "Of course not all Biden's voters are like these guys, although I would assume all of these will/would vote for Biden:"
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Old 22.10.2020, 11:01
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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You know you could just as easily exchange all those pictures for BLM/Antifa types tearing up and burning down cities. "Of course not all Biden's voters are like these guys, although I would assume all of these will/would vote for Biden:"
Agree to a certain extent. "BLM" (if I assume that you mean "Black lives matter") is in principle a peaceful protest motto against police brutality. Naming BLM supporters in general as equivalent to neo-nazis is a bit of a stretch. On the other hand, Antifa is a fairly violent loose movement that, deplorable as it may be, is a response to facists and racism, without which they just wouldn't exist as such.
  #1453  
Old 22.10.2020, 11:31
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Agree to a certain extent. "BLM" (if I assume that you mean "Black lives matter") is in principle a peaceful protest motto against police brutality. Naming BLM supporters in general as equivalent to neo-nazis is a bit of a stretch. On the other hand, Antifa is a fairly violent loose movement that, deplorable as it may be, is a response to facists and racism, without which they just wouldn't exist as such.
BLM has a dual identity. There's normal people protesting against police brutality on the one hand using their name. On the other hand, there's the actual organisation itself which believes in dismantling capitalism, democracy and the prison system.

Antifa by and large isn't a response to fascists. Its a marketing slogan and a front for extreme leftists, who in the absence of real fascists in most places take on regular conservative parties. We had tons of them in London. There is not a single fascist (i.e. BNP or similar) councillor left in the UK as far as I am aware (last one I'm aware of was in Pendle District and has now retired). Not one of the "antifas" has normal political views. Its universally far left.
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Old 22.10.2020, 11:35
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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The affordable education and health care isn't what turns them off; it's the idea that they have to provide it for the rest of the world too.
Yeah, nobody likes higher taxes, not even those with lower income. I guess that includes both groups - the pro-affordable education and health care folk too. I think most people agree with a lot of things, in principle, as long as they're on the receiving and not on the giving end.
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Old 22.10.2020, 11:36
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The affordable education and health care isn't what turns them off; it's the idea that they have to provide it for the rest of the world too.
In fact, I listened to a bunch of Trump supporters in an interview this morning and they said that "trump lets us keep our money". They also said stuff like, Trump was an alpha male, successful businessman who runs the country better than politicians.

I think in many situations Trump supporters identify with the idea of Trump because they too want to be successful and rich. There was a study a few years ago where Americans liked the idea of rich people because it gave them hope they too could be rich. Better to be rich than educated, iirc.

I know people who are Trump supporters and they believe he was sent from God, and he is nothing but good.

ideas of autonomy, independence and American exceptionalism are, I believe, ideas that appeal to many Trump supporters, many Americans too. Lots of people want to control their own destiny, pay for only what they use, or they want. The problem is that sometimes these folks don't get that we all pay for highways, infrastructure, schools and hospitals. I don't think they are necessarily dumb, but I do think they are taken advantage of. And I'm pretty sure that Trump and his ilk don't give a rat's ass about the average dude, except for their vote and to get them to come to a rally and buy hats.
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Old 22.10.2020, 11:38
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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I think analyzing what his voters really want and need (I doubt he is godlike to them, yanks are very independent to give up their identity for somebody else, imho, very few I know idolize...well maybe I know people not representative of the population, who knows), is the way forward.
Have you ever called a southerner (from the US) a Yank? How did that go? I think calling Americans Yanks is a bit of identity politics right there.
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Old 22.10.2020, 11:44
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In november, people have to write a name on their ballot (or cross or whatever). So you can't take the person out of the picture completely.
Totally. But saying "don't vote Trump coz he is an idiot" just isn't sufficient and that's the predominant argument, it seems. Never gets further than that. Libs don't realize that they are basically saying "Trumps voters are idiots" as the only argument, the level of tolerance for a debate is zilch. If voters get called idiots, are they going to vote for the party that almost dominantly offers name calling them before they vote? Who'd do that? It is a bad strategy and it voted Trump in. Hillary style. It keeps going...I am not saying Trumpers don't do it but they curb it it seems, I see the same here too. Positive rhetorics is always better and I don't see much investment into that on Trump's opponents side, unfortunately, them being goaded into emotional outbursts. Lowers the tone, exhausts.

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In the best case they want food, affordable education, health care, social and job security and a thriving economy. From a distance, it feels like they want to win over the libtards no mater what.
Thriving economy within one's community. Like here. Global (universal peace, libs) vs local (home peace, conserv and neutral). People want what Switzerland has. Focus on local conditions, progress and self sustainance. Only after that people are interested in global/EU/world.

That how it seems to me from a distance.

To be called stupid for that isn't wise. I don't care for Trump, he corresponds to the level of political discourse in the US, all the -tainments that got popular the last few decades. Meh.
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  #1458  
Old 22.10.2020, 11:47
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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Lots of people want to control their own destiny, pay for only what they use, or they want. The problem is that sometimes these folks don't get that we all pay for highways, infrastructure, schools and hospitals. I don't think they are necessarily dumb, but I do think they are taken advantage of. And I'm pretty sure that Trump and his ilk don't give a rat's ass about the average dude, except for their vote and to get them to come to a rally and buy hats.
This. It seems to me there's a chronic misunderstanding on how things work.
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Old 22.10.2020, 12:04
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Have you ever called a southerner (from the US) a Yank? How did that go? I think calling Americans Yanks is a bit of identity politics right there.
I think in the UK, most people who haven't been to the US or studied it particularly, don't make the distinction and so the word Yank goes for any American

Same as in Switzerland any German is a Schwob.

Or in Bavaria, any non Bavarian German is a Preuss (or a Praiss).

Or even among people who are educated enough to know better, any part of The Netherlands is Holland.

Or back in the day, any person from the USSR was a Russian.

When you have a certain distance, you simplify things, and associate one group (typically the group who annoy you the most) with the whole country.

That's how it works.
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Old 22.10.2020, 12:14
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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You know you could just as easily exchange all those pictures for BLM/Antifa types tearing up and burning down cities. "Of course not all Biden's voters are like these guys, although I would assume all of these will/would vote for Biden:"
With the huge difference that the people in those pictures, despite their unsetting and caricaturesque combination of clownism and despicability, for the most part don't burn cities down. It's the Antifa types doing that.
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