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View Poll Results: Who will win the US election?
Trump/Pence 11 52.38%
Biden/Harris 10 47.62%
Voters: 21. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1461  
Old 22.10.2020, 13:25
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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I think in the UK, most people who haven't been to the US or studied it particularly, don't make the distinction and so the word Yank goes for any American

Same as in Switzerland any German is a Schwob.

Or in Bavaria, any non Bavarian German is a Preuss (or a Praiss).

Or even among people who are educated enough to know better, any part of The Netherlands is Holland.

Or back in the day, any person from the USSR was a Russian.

When you have a certain distance, you simplify things, and associate one group (typically the group who annoy you the most) with the whole country.

That's how it works.
Yo. Metonymy rocks.

Or all Germans being Prussians for Czechs (so in fact Bohemians and Moravians).

We like Saxonians, though, so we usually pick them out of the Prussian club. It is logical, shared DNA.
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  #1462  
Old 22.10.2020, 13:35
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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I think in the UK, most people who haven't been to the US or studied it particularly, don't make the distinction and so the word Yank goes for any American

Same as in Switzerland any German is a Schwob.

Or in Bavaria, any non Bavarian German is a Preuss (or a Praiss).

Or even among people who are educated enough to know better, any part of The Netherlands is Holland.

Or back in the day, any person from the USSR was a Russian.

When you have a certain distance, you simplify things, and associate one group (typically the group who annoy you the most) with the whole country.

That's how it works.
When one has a certain distance, sure, but when one presumes to have a well formed opinion....

An excellent rationalization and apologist post, nevertheless.
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Old 22.10.2020, 13:38
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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With the huge difference that the people in those pictures, despite their unsetting and caricaturesque combination of clownism and despicability, for the most part don't burn cities down. It's the Antifa types doing that.
No, they just limit themselves to mass shootings of course.

what an incredibly disingenous post..

and the fact that a mod thanked it. for shame
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  #1464  
Old 22.10.2020, 13:38
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

Something else that I recall from the Trump supporters that I know.....many say he’s not a great speaker, but he loves America, implying that many Democrats don’t. That’s been an oft repeated meme.
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Old 22.10.2020, 13:41
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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Yo. Metonymy rocks.

.
Or it sucks, depending whom you're asking...
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  #1466  
Old 22.10.2020, 13:50
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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Because it is not about Trump. It is about what the Trump's voters want. It is simple math. Everyone focuses on Trump instead of focusing on why people voted for him. Those aren't identical concepts at all. One can say that Trump's dumb and be done with it. But to say that all those millions who voted for him are dumb...isn't gonna cut it. That volume is too high to shrug it off as a brainfart. But people are happy just yelling how dumb Trump is and think that it is enough to change the minds of million voters. What Trump opponents do define the future more than any elaborate analysis on why Trump's ill suited. So posturing on how one feels about Trump - is entirely missing the point. Let's focus on what Trump supporters want and need and how it will happen and via whom. That would be more productive, imho. Kinda Swiss style. Neutrally.
All very true to a point. But there is another issue that can motivate voters very strongly, whether from the left or the right. And that is, especially in a two-party system, that people are voting against what they DON'T WANT.
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  #1467  
Old 22.10.2020, 13:56
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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All very true to a point. But there is another issue that can motivate voters very strongly, whether from the left or the right. And that is, especially in a two-party system, that people are voting against what they DON'T WANT.
You are correct. I did say that people will not vote for negatives or those who only call others names.

Voting against Dems seems to be the no. 1 motive, not how great Trump is. People are sick of being patronized.
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  #1468  
Old 22.10.2020, 14:04
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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With the huge difference that the people in those pictures, despite their unsetting and caricaturesque combination of clownism and despicability, for the most part don't burn cities down. It's the Antifa types doing that.
In the real world nobody in the US burns cities down, it is never more than a couple of storefronts in a block or two in a huge city.

Seems like an appropriate time to share the words of former Google Chief Executive Officer Eric Schmidt who predicted yesterday social networks will be regulated "unless the industry gets its act together in a really clever way," with Schmidt arguing that the context of such platforms serves as "amplifiers for idiots and crazy people."

“The context of social networks serving as amplifiers for idiots and crazy people is not what we intended.”

Source

Looking at the various polls of polls it looks like Biden is slightly leading in Swing states versus Hillary at the same date and Biden's numbers are rising whereas Hillary's were starting their decline.
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  #1469  
Old 22.10.2020, 14:24
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

I suspect it will come down to the number of people that actually vote. The number of new Registrations from Republicans is growing. I believe many Democrats are expecting Biden to take it easily so may not show up on the day.

This is the Dominic Cummings strategy ... and it worked for Brexit.
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Old 22.10.2020, 14:27
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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Something else that I recall from the Trump supporters that I know.....many say he’s not a great speaker, but he loves America, implying that many Democrats don’t. That’s been an oft repeated meme.
The problem for Democrats is that to them everyone in the world is an American - some are just more official than others.

That's what I was referring to when I said Trump supporters aren't necessarily against affordable education and health care, but they aren't interested in providing it for the rest of the world too.
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  #1471  
Old 22.10.2020, 14:43
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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I suspect it will come down to the number of people that actually vote. The number of new Registrations from Republicans is growing. I believe many Democrats are expecting Biden to take it easily so may not show up on the day.

This is the Dominic Cummings strategy ... and it worked for Brexit.
I think you are right. And it's pretty nuts, tbh. But maybe Dems cash in more if they spend another 4 years in the opposition? Why spend 4 years in victim mindset and then refuse to change it?
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  #1472  
Old 22.10.2020, 14:52
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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The problem for Democrats is that to them everyone in the world is an American - some are just more official than others.

That's what I was referring to when I said Trump supporters aren't necessarily against affordable education and health care, but they aren't interested in providing it for the rest of the world too.
Totally disagree with your first paragraph. Second paragraph is true, referring to a small circle of like minded and appearing and localized people.
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  #1473  
Old 22.10.2020, 15:10
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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With the huge difference that the people in those pictures, despite their unsetting and caricaturesque combination of clownism and despicability, for the most part don't burn cities down. It's the Antifa types doing that.
I feel that's too broad a generalization. As bad as the Antifa movement is, it's a bit too much saying that they "burn cities down", as clearly the looting and general chaos is posibly both Antifa sympatizers as well as regular folk with very poor values making the most of the opportunity.

On the other hand, the despicable people in those photographs (from my previous post) likely range from people who are just bigots, to murderers . There's a centrist think-tank in Washington D.C. (the Center for Strategic and International Studies) that built a database and published a retrospective research off 900 politically-motivated plots and murders in the US from the last 15 years. They found that only one person's death in the last 25 years was linked to "antifa" or anti-fascists, and the person who died was the attacker. At the same time, over that same period, 329 murders were linked to the far-right.

There's an article from The Guardian about this from a few months back.

In Business Insider there's another article about it, which mentions the following:

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Researchers at the Global Project Against Hate and Extremism, and at the Anti-Defamation League, told The Guardian they did not know of any murders linked to antifa in the US in the last 25 years.
In other words, I don't think we should take the extreme-left and violent Antifa lightly. But it's not what Trump portrays it to be. At the same time, you hear about mass shootings by individuals with a nationalistic, ultra-conservative (mind my words, I do NOT imply conservative, but ultra-conservative), white supremacist or just old-fashioned racist agenda, who oftentimes post manifestos before going on their rampage, e.g. El Paso shooting, Poway sinagogue shooting, San Diego disco shooting, the Charlottesville car attack, Rittenhouse/Kenosha shooting, etc, etc, etc.

So no, I don't see an equivalence between Antifa and the far-right.
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Old 22.10.2020, 15:23
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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Totally. But saying "don't vote Trump coz he is an idiot" just isn't sufficient and that's the predominant argument, it seems. Never gets further than that. Libs don't realize that they are basically saying "Trumps voters are idiots" as the only argument, the level of tolerance for a debate is zilch. If voters get called idiots, are they going to vote for the party that almost dominantly offers name calling them before they vote? Who'd do that? It is a bad strategy and it voted Trump in. Hillary style. It keeps going...I am not saying Trumpers don't do it but they curb it it seems, I see the same here too. Positive rhetorics is always better and I don't see much investment into that on Trump's opponents side, unfortunately, them being goaded into emotional outbursts. Lowers the tone, exhausts.



Thriving economy within one's community. Like here. Global (universal peace, libs) vs local (home peace, conserv and neutral). People want what Switzerland has. Focus on local conditions, progress and self sustainance. Only after that people are interested in global/EU/world.

That how it seems to me from a distance.

To be called stupid for that isn't wise. I don't care for Trump, he corresponds to the level of political discourse in the US, all the -tainments that got popular the last few decades. Meh.
You just condemned people on the left for referring to Trump supporters as idiots and quoted someone referring to people on the left as "libtards."

Calling Trump an idiot is a blanketed statement -- a bit like saying that Hilter was a psychopath. That doesn't mean there aren't justifiable reasons and examples to back that up. So yes, it does indeed go further than that. And if there is a lack of tolerance there, it's because intelligent people don't usually have much tolerance for ignorance. Imagine being in a flat-earth convention and trying to have rational, intelligent debates with people who choose to completely ignore science and evidence or in a debate with someone who believes that if they kill innocent people, they will go to heaven and be rewarded with seven virgins.

Also, people with integrity and who respect integrity have a difficult time respecting those who lack it. The fact is, Trump has admittedly lied to Americans and has also admitted that he could kill someone in the street and yet he wouldn't lose votes, etc. He empowers himself by encouraging hatred, and he exploits people's racism and ignorance for his own agenda.

I'm not sure if I think all Trump supporters are idiots or if I just feel sorry for them, because they are clearly blind to being manipulated and brainwashed. And that's the thing -- the only way you can be manipulated and brainwashed is to either being ignorant of it or to be in complete denial.
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Old 22.10.2020, 15:29
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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I'm not sure if I think all Trump supporters are idiots or if I just feel sorry for them, because they are clearly blind to being manipulated and brainwashed.
No, Trump was the winning option for conservatives, and most conservatives would rather endure 1 or 2 Trump presidencies, which are still guaranteed to support a generic conservative agenda, than a brilliant liberal government. Like it or not, Trump's administration put conservative justices in the supreme court, deregulated A LOT, limited some LGBTQ liberties, and is now opening the door for reviewing abortion. All of those points would have been unthinkable under a liberal government, so who would a regular conservative voter choose? A horrible president who pushes his interests, or a smart liberal who does the opposite?

I do think that Trump's base includes a large number of very ignorant people but it also includes a HUGE number of regular conservatives who voted for him as the only viable choice vs a Democrat party with an increasingly tilt to the left.
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Old 22.10.2020, 15:30
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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No, Trump was the winning option for conservatives, and most conservatives would rather endure 1 or 2 Trump presidencies, which are still guaranteed to support a generic conservative agenda, than a brilliant liberal government. Like it or not, Trump's administration put conservative justices in the supreme court, deregulated A LOT, limited some LGBTQ liberties, and is now opening the door for reviewing abortion. All of those points would have been unthinkable under a liberal government, so who would a regular conservative voter choose? A horrible president who pushes his interests, or a smart liberal who does the opposite?

I do think that Trump's base includes a large number of very ignorant people but it also includes a HUGE number of regular conservatives who voted for him as the only viable choice vs a Democrat party with an increasingly tilt to the left.
I think we actually completely agree then.
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Old 22.10.2020, 15:40
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I think we actually completely agree then.
But, from my perspective the average US Democrat is still right of centre.
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Old 22.10.2020, 15:45
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

@Caleb

Also in support, Department of Homeland security October 2020 report; " particularly concerned about white supremacist violent extremists who have been exceptionally lethal in their abhorrent, targeted attacks in recent years"

Seems Antifa need to up their game
For the simple-minded, this is sarcasm, not advice.
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Old 22.10.2020, 15:47
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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All of those points would have been unthinkable under a liberal government, so who would a regular conservative voter choose? A horrible president who pushes his interests, or a smart liberal who does the opposite?
Luckily, the vast majority of those conservatives happen to be of a certain age that within a few years they will be voting in the heavens only. The current Republican party is already having, but is going to have an even stronger, identity crisis. They are bound to lose voters, it's a simple fact of generational shift.
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Old 22.10.2020, 15:50
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Re: Trump or Biden .Who you got?

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But, from my perspective the average US Democrat is still right of centre.
That may very well be. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but both Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders seem to be enjoying a lot more support than in the past. And not actually leaning left, but many of the newer rising figures are far more liberal than the seats they're replacing. With the recent ideas ranging from AOC's green new deal, decriminalizing border crossings (pushed by Julian Castro), or last year's Cory Booker's project to pay reparations to descendants of slaves, it seems to me that the Democratic Party is moving a bit left, and a bit towards more progressive/liberal. Isn't that so?
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