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  #121  
Old 13.11.2020, 12:25
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Re: Azerbaijan conflict

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This is a speculation that neither of us will be able to check. The Armenian genocide is a fact and I am not here to argue conspiracy theories.
Apparently you are and willing to indict an entire country/people as genocidal

And no, it is far from a fact as there still is no majority consensus on what transpired or who were culpable. The only fact is that Armenians were killed/displaced
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  #122  
Old 13.11.2020, 12:33
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Re: Azerbaijan conflict

How does Azerbaijan sell oil and gas to Europe? Does it use the Nordstream pipeline?
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  #123  
Old 13.11.2020, 12:39
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Re: Azerbaijan conflict

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Apparently you are and willing to indict an entire country/people as genocidal
You are trying to put words in my mouth which I never said. I'm neither a judge to indict, nor have I suggested that an entire country/people are genocidal. I stressed the historical fact that there was an Armenian Genocide.

Funnily enough, you seem to take a position that is even more extreme than the official Turkish position which widely recognizes the mass murders, but falls short of calling it a "genocide". Of course, ignorance is a choice and you've made it on this particular issue.

"The Republic of Turkey's formal stance is that the deaths of Armenians during the "relocation" or "deportation" cannot aptly be deemed "genocide". A semantic debate is something that only you seem to be excited about, please carry on on your own.


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How does Azerbaijansell oil and gas to Europe? Does it use the Nordstream pipeline?
Azerbaijan has three crude oil export pipelines. The largest is the 1,768-km-long Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan (BTC) pipeline, which transports crude and condensates through Azerbaijan, Georgia and Turkey. It has two main gas export pipelines, including the 693 km South Caucasus Pipeline (SCP) that transports gas from the Shah Deniz field through Georgia to Turkey parallel to the BTC crude oil pipeline

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/28/arme...t-anxiety.html
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  #124  
Old 24.04.2021, 19:47
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Re: Azerbaijan conflict

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Apparently you are and willing to indict an entire country/people as genocidal

And no, it is far from a fact as there still is no majority consensus on what transpired or who were culpable. The only fact is that Armenians were killed/displaced
President Biden and the USA has recognised the Armenian Genocide today on its 106th Anniversary. It seems only you, Erdogan and his gang of thugs, and the Turkish Grey Wolves are still in denial.
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  #125  
Old 25.04.2021, 08:11
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Re: Azerbaijan conflict

Yes, more credible to have experts who have been guilty of genocide themselves weigh in on what constitutes genocide - even by a President who as old as he is wasn’t present more than a century ago to assess ‘facts’
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  #126  
Old 25.04.2021, 08:49
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Re: Azerbaijan conflict

Well AFAIK the German government has accepted responsibility for atrocities committed by previous German governments, so should the Turkish government take responsibility for the Ottoman atrocities.

On the other hand I don’t think many in the west are even aware of the Ottomans which ruled a large portion of the planet for 600 odd years.
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  #127  
Old 25.04.2021, 09:24
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Re: Azerbaijan conflict

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Yes, more credible to have experts who have been guilty of genocide themselves weigh in on what constitutes genocide - even by a President who as old as he is wasn’t present more than a century ago to assess ‘facts’
I see you’re still in denial. Do you also deny the Holocaust?
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  #128  
Old 25.04.2021, 10:36
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Re: Azerbaijan conflict

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I see you’re still in denial. Do you also deny the Holocaust?
Without doubt a large number of Armenians (Assyrians and Greeks as well) died due to the actions of the Ottomans. 1 1/2 million or more.

But was it Genocide? Genocide is the intentional action to destroy a people—usually defined as an ethnic, national, racial, or religious group—in whole or in part.

Was it the intentional action to destroy a people? The history of the Ottomans, which was a multinational empire, suggest that the Armenians, Assyrians and Greeks were not singled out due to their ethnic grouping. But they did die in high numbers due to the policies of the empire at that time.

There were no concentration camps, no gas chambers, no mass crematorium. Not comparable to the holocaust.

No doubt it did happen, millions died, but was it an intentional action to destroy a people. I would need to see some evidence that was the intention of the Ottomans.
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  #129  
Old 25.04.2021, 10:51
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Re: Azerbaijan conflict

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Without doubt a large number of Armenians (Assyrians and Greeks as well) died due to the actions of the Ottomans. 1 1/2 million or more.

But was it Genocide? Genocide is the intentional action to destroy a people—usually defined as an ethnic, national, racial, or religious group—in whole or in part.

Was it the intentional action to destroy a people? The history of the Ottomans, which was a multinational empire, suggest that the Armenians, Assyrians and Greeks were not singled out due to their ethnic grouping. But they did die in high numbers due to the policies of the empire at that time.

There were no concentration camps, no gas chambers, no mass crematorium. Not comparable to the holocaust.

No doubt it did happen, millions died, but was it an intentional action to destroy a people. I would need to see some evidence that was the intention of the Ottomans.
homicidal ethnic cleansing limited to "your" territory is enough to be a genocide AFAIK. It doesn't require you to pursue your victims to the moon to make sure no one survives.

Gas chambers and incinerating bodies is a useless waste of resources when you can just walk them across the desert.
Besides the final solution was implemented towards the end, because they had to hurry up. Slowly working them to death like they did in the first part would not have made it any less of a genocide.
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  #130  
Old 25.04.2021, 11:06
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Re: Azerbaijan conflict

There's a very simple acid test: If one's political and historical views are aligned with Erdogan, one's political and historical views are wrong. It tends to work 100%
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  #131  
Old 25.04.2021, 11:10
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Re: Azerbaijan conflict

Yes, but. Was the intention of the Ottomans to destroy a people? No doubt their actions suggest that could have been the result. But was that their intention?

There is lots of evidence that the Nazis intended to get rid of the Jews, Gypses, Homosexuals and others.

I haven’t seen evidence that what happened to the Arméniens was an intentional act to destroy a people.
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  #132  
Old 25.04.2021, 11:35
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Re: Azerbaijan conflict

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I haven’t seen evidence that what happened to the Arméniens was an intentional act to destroy a people.
Semantical discussions about the proper name to baptize this are of no interest to me. The fact is that about a million were killed and deported in an organized and systematic way. Whether one calls it "nation building" or "cleansing" or "genocide" doesn't alter the fact.

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  #133  
Old 25.04.2021, 12:23
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Re: Azerbaijan conflict

Of course proof exists, for decades.
Ironically it's the Germans, Turkey's WWI ally, who kept track of the genocides. And besides that, it's obvious that if we are talking elimination, especially of a people's elite with ongoing cancelling of any ethnical and cultural trace, we are talking genocide and not "simply" massacre.

Until this day Turkey keeps on hiding every evidence and cultural aspect of actual and former (i.e. slaughtered) Armenian people (and not only, also Syriacs had to change their last names, e.g., in favor of more "Turkish" ones).
Btw. I am with Erdogan that Turkey must redefine its strategic rule in political, economical and cultural matters (because Atatürk has been reveiled a failure in the long run). If that means that it is worth recycling something of the Ottoman empire past (which of course shall be part of Turkish culture and history), one has to accept not only good things, but also the bad ones. We commonly call that "responsibility".
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  #134  
Old 25.04.2021, 12:23
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Re: Azerbaijan conflict

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Without doubt a large number of Armenians (Assyrians and Greeks as well) died due to the actions of the Ottomans. 1 1/2 million or more.

But was it Genocide? Genocide is the intentional action to destroy a people—usually defined as an ethnic, national, racial, or religious group—in whole or in part.

Was it the intentional action to destroy a people? The history of the Ottomans, which was a multinational empire, suggest that the Armenians, Assyrians and Greeks were not singled out due to their ethnic grouping. But they did die in high numbers due to the policies of the empire at that time.

There were no concentration camps, no gas chambers, no mass crematorium. Not comparable to the holocaust.

No doubt it did happen, millions died, but was it an intentional action to destroy a people. I would need to see some evidence that was the intention of the Ottomans.
There were concentration camps. Read a bit about it.
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  #135  
Old 25.04.2021, 13:04
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Re: Azerbaijan conflict

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I haven’t seen evidence that what happened to the Arméniens was an intentional act to destroy a people.
If you seriously hope to qualify one of many “death marches” as something unintentional, I don’t think we are on the same page. Why not go a step further and file it under benevolent? After all some made it? Naturally only thanks to the caring supervision of those in charge…
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  #136  
Old 25.04.2021, 13:38
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Re: Azerbaijan conflict

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President Biden and the USA has recognised the Armenian Genocide today on its 106th Anniversary. It seems only you, Erdogan and his gang of thugs, and the Turkish Grey Wolves are still in denial.
Better decades late than never, Switzerland accepted this fact long ago.

Tom
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  #137  
Old 25.04.2021, 14:52
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Re: Azerbaijan conflict

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Yes, but. Was the intention of the Ottomans to destroy a people?
That's not a requirement for a genocide. Genocide is on the intentional and targeted mass-murder, not on the reasons that may have caused them.
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  #138  
Old 25.04.2021, 15:08
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Re: Azerbaijan conflict

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Btw. I am with Erdogan that Turkey must redefine its strategic rule in political, economical and cultural matters (because Atatürk has been reveiled a failure in the long run).
Can you elaborate on that a bit please?
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  #139  
Old 25.04.2021, 20:15
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Re: Azerbaijan conflict

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Yes, but. Was the intention of the Ottomans to destroy a people? No doubt their actions suggest that could have been the result. But was that their intention?

There is lots of evidence that the Nazis intended to get rid of the Jews, Gypses, Homosexuals and others.

I haven’t seen evidence that what happened to the Arméniens was an intentional act to destroy a people.
Well go to any pub in Yerewan and bring that statement up a few minutes before closing time. Let us know how you got on.
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  #140  
Old 25.04.2021, 20:21
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Re: Azerbaijan conflict

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[Was the intention of the Ottomans to destroy a people?
No, it was purely by accident. The Turks wanted to congratulate and welcome the Armenians into a new and modern Turkey, but somehow and completely unintentionally they killed 1m of them.
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