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  #41  
Old 18.11.2020, 21:10
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Re: Ban on new petrol and diesel cars in UK from 2030 under PM's green plan

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Not only that, has anyone had a serious discussion about the conflict zones from which many of the materials for these batteries are sourced? How about the forced and sometimes child labor? And then there's the waste.
Tesla have already announced their next generation of batteries will be cobalt free, others are also moving in that direction. Li-ion cells have a high recyclability, the lithium (and today cobalt) are valuable and can be recycled indefinitely. The motors are already free of rare earths.

Do you have a mobile phone...?

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And let's not forget the mountains of petrol cars that need to go somewhere too if we all have to switch to electric.
1. Why? They're not (yet) banning cars already registered.
2. So what

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Generating sufficient electricity is an issue too as others have said
Are you aware of the extent we are moving to renewables? EVs are a perfect mix with solar or wind which in future will have overcapacity in good weather conditions

Ultimately this is the sort of move needed to drive the urgently required move away from fossil fuels. The UK are far from the first country to have announced such plans.
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  #42  
Old 18.11.2020, 22:04
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Re: Ban on new petrol and diesel cars in UK from 2030 under PM's green plan

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Are you aware of the extent we are moving to renewables? EVs are a perfect mix with solar or wind which in future will have overcapacity in good weather conditions

Ultimately this is the sort of move needed to drive the urgently required move away from fossil fuels. The UK are far from the first country to have announced such plans.
Not sure if you are serious. Solar and wind will never be sufficient let alone over capacity. Germany and Netherlands are already discovering this.
Do not repeat pleasant thoughts from your national or local media, read what physicists say about energy density of various sources.

As far as projected battery waste and recyclability please read on what scientists and engineers are saying: https://cen.acs.org/materials/energy...lithium/97/i28
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Old 19.11.2020, 02:24
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Re: Ban on new petrol and diesel cars in UK from 2030 under PM's green plan

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Personally, faced with such a choice I would go hydrogen powered.
Every hydrogen-powered vehicle commercially available today is an EV—a fuel cell electric vehicle, or FCEV. They all have fuel cells that produce energy through electrochemical means, using hydrogen and producing only water as a waste product. So far, so good.

Now we turn to how energy is supplied to power the car. Conventional (if that word applies now) or battery EVs (BEVs) are charged with electricity from a range of sources, including renewable, and I wouldn't write off or disparage solar or wind energy; they have come a long way and indications are that massive efficiency improvements are still likely with solar power cells. There are also hydroelectric power options in many countries, especially mountainous ones like Switzerland. Nuclear power may well make a comeback as one of the most efficient electricity generators around.

Hydrogen, on the other hand, while abundant in the Earth's atmosphere, is almost completely bound in molecules with other atoms. Elemental hydrogen can be separated from water by electrolysis. That is an expensive process that itself uses a great deal of energy, and it's very inefficient. So most hydrogen is extracted from natural gas or methane—in the process, releasing large quantities of carbon-based pollutants into the atmosphere. Having produced this expensive, polluting product, the hydrogen has to be transported and stored, and it's extremely explosive—much more so than petrol (which is very difficult to get to explode). Think the Hindenburg. Think also of millions of cars driving around with 100-litre explosive bombs on board. I don't fancy getting into an accident with one or more of those.

There are also multiple other practical issues mitigating against hydrogen power for cars. Elon Musk took a long, hard look at hydrogen before plumping decisively for "conventionally" powered electric motors; he concluded that hydrogen was a non-starter for cars. I'm happy to take his side, he seems to be good at picking winners.

Last edited by 22 yards; 19.11.2020 at 15:40. Reason: Typo
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  #44  
Old 19.11.2020, 07:59
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Re: Ban on new petrol and diesel cars in UK from 2030 under PM's green plan

Will there eventually be a petrol ban on military vehicles too? Ceasefire to charge the battery?

Last edited by Talk to you later; 19.11.2020 at 08:10.
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  #45  
Old 19.11.2020, 08:02
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Re: Ban on new petrol and diesel cars in UK from 2030 under PM's green plan

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Not sure if you are serious. Solar and wind will never be sufficient let alone over capacity. Germany and Netherlands are already discovering this.
Do not repeat pleasant thoughts from your national or local media, read what physicists say about energy density of various sources.
Proportion of electricity being generated by renewables in 2019 (source);

Switzerland - 57%
Germany - 40%
Austria - 74%
UK - 37%
Denmark - 77%
Spain - 37%
Portugal - 51%
Norway - 97%
Sweden - 58%

Not exactly nothing figures, all have increased massively in recent years and the pace of adoption of renewables has also increased rapidly. Germany for example have just announced 40 GW of new offshore wind developments.

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As far as projected battery waste and recyclability please read on what scientists and engineers are saying: https://cen.acs.org/materials/energy...lithium/97/i28
I presume as usual you didn't read your own link - you realise that article is in favour of recycling? Yes, there's nowhere enough being done at the moment but that doesn't mean it has to stay that way. From the summary...:

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  #46  
Old 19.11.2020, 08:51
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Re: Ban on new petrol and diesel cars in UK from 2030 under PM's green plan

Also consider the psychology of this.

Human nature means overall we as a group are averse to changing.

Real change follows a certain path.

1. Early adopters

2. General social agreement about the change

3. Wide adoption

4. Full adoption

The problem comes between 2 and 3 - apart from the early adopters, people are very cautious, so this step takes ages. Also it is measured not in time but in iterations of whatever the change is - so if the average person keeps their car three years, and takes two iterations to change, that's a six year delay.

By putting a deadline on the change, it strongly encourages people to make this step as they no longer feel it is such a risk and it increases social pressure.

It also helps solve the problem of holdouts between steps 3 and 4, although in this case the fact that old cars are still available probably means the gradual lack of old-style fuel may be more of a push in the end.
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  #47  
Old 19.11.2020, 09:38
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Re: Ban on new petrol and diesel cars in UK from 2030 under PM's green plan

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I presume as usual you didn't read your own link - you realise that article is in favour of recycling? Yes, there's nowhere enough being done at the moment but that doesn't mean it has to stay that way. From the summary...:
We both read it, you just did understand what it says.

(No one is arguing against renewable energy (strawman much?)). Your assertion that solar and wind will provide oversupply of energy is ill informed.

Last edited by BoredToDeath; 19.11.2020 at 10:25.
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  #48  
Old 19.11.2020, 10:40
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Re: Ban on new petrol and diesel cars in UK from 2030 under PM's green plan

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We both read it, you just did understand what it says.

(No one is arguing against renewable energy (strawman much?)). Your assertion that solar and wind will provide oversupply of energy is ill informed.
Eh? That link (the part of my post you quoted) was ONLY about battery recycling as was your original (and confusing) answer. Although I'm happy you say I understood it.

On renewables, because of their inherantly less reliable nature there HAS to be (and will be) a planned oversupply coupled with storage. One method will certainly to use battery cars and the pricing of recharging to buffer some of that unpredictability and encouraging recharging when supply is plentiful.

On a small scale, there are already people using their cars as a storage and overnight home supply for the PV supply from their roofs.
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Old 19.11.2020, 11:28
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Re: Ban on new petrol and diesel cars in UK from 2030 under PM's green plan

Looking around at a Volvo garage I was in,the hybrids were on average around 20 K more expensive so financially no reason to go for it.

If I want to go fully electric then they have to chop down half a Forest and then dig up the mountain side to get at the Lithium and then figure out how to safely dispose of the battery when my car reaches end of life.I like forests and mountains so thatís not an option for me.

I read somewhere that just to manufacture an electric car has a greater CO2 output than a standard car manufacture.

I donít see the electric car we have today as the long term solution. Letís see if hydrogen or some other technology will gives us a proper solution.
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Old 19.11.2020, 11:30
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Re: Ban on new petrol and diesel cars in UK from 2030 under PM's green plan

I can't understand why there isn't standardisation on car batteries so they are fully interchangeable. That way you drive into eShell or whatever, drive over a grid and a robot takes your depleted battery and replaces it with a fully charged one. You can still charge at home etc.. but it solves the biggest issue of range anxiety.
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Old 19.11.2020, 11:35
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Re: Ban on new petrol and diesel cars in UK from 2030 under PM's green plan

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I can't understand why there isn't standardisation on car batteries so they are fully interchangeable. That way you drive into eShell or whatever, drive over a grid and a robot takes your depleted battery and replaces it with a fully charged one. You can still charge at home etc.. but it solves the biggest issue of range anxiety.
Like the phone charger cables, governments could solve this.
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Old 19.11.2020, 11:37
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Re: Ban on new petrol and diesel cars in UK from 2030 under PM's green plan

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Like the phone charger cables, governments could solve this.
Exactly, they could standardise on 2 or 3 sizes for city cars and higher performance EVs just like they have 2 grades of petrol and diesel. It would also preserve the value of EVs because age of battery won't be a consideration.
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Old 19.11.2020, 11:38
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Re: Ban on new petrol and diesel cars in UK from 2030 under PM's green plan

I hope this triggers more nuclear power station s to be built, the big coastal ones or more regional mini ones.
Nuclear is the only reliable option available for these huge power requirements.
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Old 19.11.2020, 11:55
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Re: Ban on new petrol and diesel cars in UK from 2030 under PM's green plan

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Exactly, they could standardise on 2 or 3 sizes for city cars and higher performance EVs just like they have 2 grades of petrol and diesel. It would also preserve the value of EVs because age of battery won't be a consideration.
This is never going to happen with the car manufacturers, that is why all the small garages around the place are disappearing as only main dealers can do the work nowadays due to specific diagnostic tools and equipment.

Service and repairs is a huge income for the dealers probably more than their net Sales for some so no way they will just give this up by standardized batteries.
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Old 19.11.2020, 12:14
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Re: Ban on new petrol and diesel cars in UK from 2030 under PM's green plan

Bona fide petrolhead here, and let me pre-face the following that not only I'm not interested in electric cars, I'm really not interested in any car produced after 2016 or so.


Cars are getting heavier, "easier", and stupider by the day and model year. So screw them and the industry can go to shit as far as I'm concerned, as long as we can get parts for the existing stuff.

Electric cars are overall cleaner. Yes that includes well-to-wheel calculations, and yes that will depend on the country discussed, but in most of the developed world it's either already cleaner, or close to being there.
Batteries are getting better and cheaper, not quick enough for sure, but for most people it is a statistical certainty that they don't need humongous ranges on a frequent basis, so it's manageable.

The stupid thing is that large metropolitan cities (that CH doesn't have if we're being honest) have curbside parking, and large distances to cover on a daily commute. If commuting in Paris, Athens, London, Los Angeles you don't need to charge every day, but you need to charge every damn week, and depending on personal situation a couple of times a week. Unless quick charging gets solved, it's going to be a PITA.

It's also only cheaper if you charge at home. In many cases you pay for charging by the minute, regardless of charging power (stupid money grab), and it's significantly more expensive than regular rates you'd pay at home. When fossil fuel vehicles are reduced in the fleet, and tax revenue goes to shit, guess where the tax is going to be placed There is no free lunch, so enjoy the discount while it lasts and until wide adoption kicks in.



In any case, electric cars are objectively better solutions. That is a given for the vast majority of the population, as they see the car largely as an appliance, or a "transportation/mobility" solution, and not as something important in their life. It is quiet, calming, easier to maintain (if built properly), and today a hue virtue signal, equivalent if not of higher value than the Prius when it first came out.

For the enthusiast minority that are already NOT buying new cars because they're shit, not fun, expensive, and stupid, it's a non-issue, and we'll just hope that the relics we will be driving in 10 years time won't be banned outright or taxed out of existence...
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Old 19.11.2020, 12:59
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Re: Ban on new petrol and diesel cars in UK from 2030 under PM's green plan

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Looking around at a Volvo garage I was in,the hybrids were on average around 20 K more expensive so financially no reason to go for it.

If I want to go fully electric then they have to chop down half a Forest and then dig up the mountain side to get at the Lithium and then figure out how to safely dispose of the battery when my car reaches end of life.I like forests and mountains so thatís not an option for me.

I read somewhere that just to manufacture an electric car has a greater CO2 output than a standard car manufacture.

I donít see the electric car we have today as the long term solution. Letís see if hydrogen or some other technology will gives us a proper solution.
I would love to know what you were comparing as Volvo (at least in CH) only offer hybrids or fully electric vehicles. There's nothing else in their product range any more.

In any event, the like for like hybrid to non-hybrid price difference was never as much as 20K.

Oh and your assumptions on electric are wholly wrong, as Don Molina wrote the full system efficiency of electirc is already significantly better than fossil. And as was pointed out further above (someone posted a nice link) hydrogen is significantly less efficient than battery.
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Old 19.11.2020, 13:12
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Re: Ban on new petrol and diesel cars in UK from 2030 under PM's green plan

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This is never going to happen with the car manufacturers, that is why all the small garages around the place are disappearing as only main dealers can do the work nowadays due to specific diagnostic tools and equipment.

Service and repairs is a huge income for the dealers probably more than their net Sales for some so no way they will just give this up by standardized batteries.
This is why it would take governments to force their hand. If the UK is serious about 2030 then manufacturers and customers are facing a precipice and its going to be adapt or die. If we imagine that VAG across all its brands produces cars with replaceable batteries and then they installed Power stations at 20 AMAG sites across Switzerland, they have the beginnings of a network of EVs which are backwardly compatible with other charging technologies.

I credit Tesla with lighting the way and turning all the 'cant's' to 'cans'. EVs have been around for more than 100 years, its only when people starting seeing infrastructure sprouting up and decent range and performance that they felt ready to take that leap and order one. All the other car manufacturers have had to rush to keep up.
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Old 19.11.2020, 13:19
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Re: Ban on new petrol and diesel cars in UK from 2030 under PM's green plan

as someone who is not a car enthusiast, i just want to get from A to B reliably and so will consider:

1. Cost
2. Reliability
3. Comfort

Currently EVs are expensive and probably will depreciate faster too. Running costs are expected to be low but may change in the future. For someone who only uses the car irregularly for occasional long trips, the fuel cost is not much of a factor, but the range issue is.

EVs are likely to come down in cost so may at some point be competitive or even cheaper than ICE cars.

Autonomous driving will bring a leap in comfort.
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Old 19.11.2020, 13:22
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Re: Ban on new petrol and diesel cars in UK from 2030 under PM's green plan

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I would love to know what you were comparing as Volvo (at least in CH) only offer hybrids or fully electric vehicles. There's nothing else in their product range any more.

In any event, the like for like hybrid to non-hybrid price difference was never as much as 20K.

Oh and your assumptions on electric are wholly wrong, as Don Molina wrote the full system efficiency of electirc is already significantly better than fossil. And as was pointed out further above (someone posted a nice link) hydrogen is significantly less efficient than battery.
I don't think Volvo's "mild hybrid" thing (basically just regenerative breaking) really counts - and the reviews suggest it's useless at actually reducing fuel consumption in real-world driving.
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Old 19.11.2020, 13:24
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Re: Ban on new petrol and diesel cars in UK from 2030 under PM's green plan

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as someone who is not a car enthusiast, i just want to get from A to B reliably and so will consider:

1. Cost
2. Reliability
3. Comfort

Currently EVs are expensive and probably will depreciate faster too. Running costs are expected to be low but may change in the future. For someone who only uses the car irregularly for occasional long trips, the fuel cost is not much of a factor, but the range issue is.

EVs are likely to come down in cost so may at some point be competitive or even cheaper than ICE cars.

Autonomous driving will bring a leap in comfort.
Thing is I am a car enthusiast and will need to be dragged kicking and screaming to electric vehicles, but I recognise the inevitability of it all.
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