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  #81  
Old 20.11.2020, 07:41
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Re: Ban on new petrol and diesel cars in UK from 2030 under PM's green plan

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Ignoring aspects like propietary technology and royalties, as well as selling one's own product rather than letting the competitor sell his, there's still the fact that no single battery is the same as the next one.

I imagine it wouldn't be fun seeing your shiny new battery capable of 130% the default (with 100% defined by a supposed new open standard) replaced by an old scrappy one that manages 85% only, especially when you're on that 2000km drive to your holiday destination. Even more so when that crappy old replacement is a hundred times more likely to blow up along the way and set your shiny new car the insurance will only pay 80% for on fire.
It will be like barbeque gas cylinders, you pay a deposit for the first one (inc in the price of the car) and then for each refill. The eStations will continually recycle and recondition the batteries so they shouldn't be crap or under capacity. If my iphone can tell me its peak capacity in 2020 then I imagine the technology would be even more advanced in a decade. As for exploding batteries, the technology would obviously have to have ISO standards for batteries and eStation compliance and their licence to operate will be determined by that.

Last edited by Castro; 20.11.2020 at 07:53.
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  #82  
Old 20.11.2020, 10:23
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Re: Ban on new petrol and diesel cars in UK from 2030 under PM's green plan

Hydrogen really makes sense for heavy trucks. In a week they consume the yearly consumption of a car. Also an option for public transport.
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  #83  
Old 20.11.2020, 10:32
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Re: Ban on new petrol and diesel cars in UK from 2030 under PM's green plan

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It will be like barbeque gas cylinders, you pay a deposit for the first one (inc in the price of the car) and then for each refill. The eStations will continually recycle and recondition the batteries so they shouldn't be crap or under capacity. If my iphone can tell me its peak capacity in 2020 then I imagine the technology would be even more advanced in a decade. As for exploding batteries, the technology would obviously have to have ISO standards for batteries and eStation compliance and their licence to operate will be determined by that.
Biggest problem with that is that it effectively kills innovation (or innovation will kill it). Let's say Tesla come up with new Li-Ion technology that offers 30% greater capacity and 25% less cost (a very realistic prospect) - why would they want to share that with other manufacturers? And why would a Tesla owner want to swop his Tesla pack for a lower performing one?

BBQ cylinders are identical and there is no development to be expected. Li-Ion is nowhere near a mature technology and there's plenty of innovation to come.
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  #84  
Old 20.11.2020, 10:59
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Re: Ban on new petrol and diesel cars in UK from 2030 under PM's green plan

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Hydrogen really makes sense for heavy trucks. In a week they consume the yearly consumption of a car. Also an option for public transport.
Perfectly feasible for cars too.
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  #85  
Old 20.11.2020, 11:07
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Re: Ban on new petrol and diesel cars in UK from 2030 under PM's green plan

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Cheapest NEW Volvo currently listed on Autoscout is a XC40 for CHF 33,990. At 129ps this can't be compared to any of the current range. Volvo have decided to push their range upmarket - the price difference is not due to hybrid.

Demonstrators are not new cars.


Yes, hydrogen can be produced from all those. But the process is massively less efficient than battery. This is the link medea posted earlier which explains it

https://theconversation.com/hydrogen...science-139899

FWIW, l would agree hybrids are not worthwhile. Disadvantages of both. Far better to go full electric.
New, nearly new big deal.

With hydrogen your still not chopping down a forest and destroying a mountain side to access the Lithium. Kind of defeats the purpose of a green car.
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  #86  
Old 20.11.2020, 11:12
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Re: Ban on new petrol and diesel cars in UK from 2030 under PM's green plan

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New, nearly new big deal.

With hydrogen your still not chopping down a forest and destroying a mountain side to access the Lithium. Kind of defeats the purpose of a green car.
So you know nothing about how Lithium is extracted either?
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  #87  
Old 20.11.2020, 11:14
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Re: Ban on new petrol and diesel cars in UK from 2030 under PM's green plan

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New, nearly new big deal.

With hydrogen your still not chopping down a forest and destroying a mountain side to access the Lithium. Kind of defeats the purpose of a green car.
That's at least the third time you've gone on about a forest and half a mountain.

Lithium is extracted from salt flats. So, no forest, no half mountain. Sure, there's a bloody big hole, but your forests and both halves of your mountains are safe. So that's all good, then.
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  #88  
Old 20.11.2020, 11:21
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Re: Ban on new petrol and diesel cars in UK from 2030 under PM's green plan

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Biggest problem with that is that it effectively kills innovation (or innovation will kill it). Let's say Tesla come up with new Li-Ion technology that offers 30% greater capacity and 25% less cost (a very realistic prospect) - why would they want to share that with other manufacturers? And why would a Tesla owner want to swop his Tesla pack for a lower performing one?

BBQ cylinders are identical and there is no development to be expected. Li-Ion is nowhere near a mature technology and there's plenty of innovation to come.
Maybe I'm trying too hard to sell this, but I don't really get that
Tesla are not a battery company, they partner with the likes of Panasonic and LG who are the innovators in this area. So let these companies bring out their new innovative batteries in IEC/ANSI standard form and charge more for them, just like you have a choice of supermarket own brand batteries or better Duracell Alkaline ones.

I usually fill up with 95 RON unleaded unless I'm feeling particularly fruity, in which case I will give her a tank of V-Power 98 RON... same thing really
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  #89  
Old 20.11.2020, 11:27
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Re: Ban on new petrol and diesel cars in UK from 2030 under PM's green plan

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Biggest problem with that is that it effectively kills innovation (or innovation will kill it). Let's say Tesla come up with new Li-Ion technology that offers 30% greater capacity and 25% less cost (a very realistic prospect) - why would they want to share that with other manufacturers? And why would a Tesla owner want to swop his Tesla pack for a lower performing one?

BBQ cylinders are identical and there is no development to be expected. Li-Ion is nowhere near a mature technology and there's plenty of innovation to come.
Not necessarily - gas cylinders is a good example, with plastic ones becoming available that are interchangeable in appliances with the same standard that existed for many years.

With batteries the standard only needs to cover the output interface and mounting points, the internals can be changed. And given the interface will no-doubt be smart (like USB), even the various capacities/limits don't need to be fixed in the standard, only the mechanism for communicating between the car and the battery.

So you could easily foresee cars making use of extra current capabilities (in both directions, for acceleration and regeneration), and battery stations having a range of options for capacity and power.

ps. In the Tesla example - they're already viewing battery production as a commercial operation; many companies do this sort of thing, taking a year or two of a new technology advantage in their own products, then rolling out the parts to other companies or direct to consumers.
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  #90  
Old 20.11.2020, 11:39
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Re: Ban on new petrol and diesel cars in UK from 2030 under PM's green plan

Mind the dumb headline, this is the important part:

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China is aiming to have 1 million fuel-cell vehicles in operation by 2030, according to an energy savings vehicle development plan drafted by authorities, despite only 2,700 such cars selling in the country last year.
https://www.bloombergquint.com/busin...-with-hydrogen

In some senses it's more practical and realistic to have a target in terms of number of clean fuel vehicles than banning oil fueled cars. If there are no alternatives, what's the point of a ban? There's an important lesson here, focus on the solution, not the problem.
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  #91  
Old 20.11.2020, 11:42
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Re: Ban on new petrol and diesel cars in UK from 2030 under PM's green plan

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Tesla are not a battery company, they partner with the likes of Panasonic and LG who are the innovators in this area. So let these companies bring out their new innovative batteries in IEC/ANSI standard form and charge more for them, just like you have a choice of supermarket own brand batteries or better Duracell Alkaline ones....
At the moment yes (actually already more of a joint venture than pure partner production) but the company is moving more towards making its own. The first "pilot" plant is now ramping up and will be the 13th largest in the world shortly.

https://cleantechnica.com/2020/09/24...gest-in-world/
https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/22/2...e-cobalt-plaid
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  #92  
Old 20.11.2020, 11:53
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Re: Ban on new petrol and diesel cars in UK from 2030 under PM's green plan

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At the moment yes (actually already more of a joint venture than pure partner production) but the company is moving more towards making its own. The first "pilot" plant is now ramping up and will be the 13th largest in the world shortly.

https://cleantechnica.com/2020/09/24...gest-in-world/
https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/22/2...e-cobalt-plaid
Well one hopes Elon Musk will stick to his good faith sharing of technology for the greater good of the industry.
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  #93  
Old 20.11.2020, 11:58
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Re: Ban on new petrol and diesel cars in UK from 2030 under PM's green plan

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So you know nothing about how Lithium is extracted either?
You don’t have to be an internet expert to figure out the damage it does to communities, not sure if you ever visited Tibet to see the destruction to the beautiful environment there that is happening but you should.

There is a misconception that lithium extraction process just happens on salt flats but that is not just the case, mountain landscapes in poor communities are being decimated for short term gain like in Tibet.

Some more reading.


https://www.theguardian.com/vital-si...musk-powerwall

Last edited by mossie; 20.11.2020 at 12:17.
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  #94  
Old 20.11.2020, 12:11
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Re: Ban on new petrol and diesel cars in UK from 2030 under PM's green plan

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That's at least the third time you've gone on about a forest and half a mountain.

Lithium is extracted from salt flats. So, no forest, no half mountain. Sure, there's a bloody big hole, but your forests and both halves of your mountains are safe. So that's all good, then.
Really Just from salt flats😂😂😂

https://www.freetibet.org/lithium-tibet
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  #95  
Old 20.11.2020, 12:37
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Re: Ban on new petrol and diesel cars in UK from 2030 under PM's green plan

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Depreciation on Teslas is annoyingly low. A year old model 3 costs pretty much the same as a new one.
Today as it's still the state of the art from Tesla.
Model X seems to lose value like a big Range Rover...
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  #96  
Old 20.11.2020, 12:41
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Re: Ban on new petrol and diesel cars in UK from 2030 under PM's green plan

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Really Just from salt flats😂😂😂

https://www.freetibet.org/lithium-tibet
A salt lake. Basically a salt flat with a bit more water. No mountains being destroyed and no forests being torn down.

Despite what is written in your link, China is not that significant a player for Lithium. About 9% of current global production and only 5% of known reserves.

The problem in Tibet is weak to non existent environmental standards. Not Lithium extraction per se.
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Old 20.11.2020, 13:10
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Re: Ban on new petrol and diesel cars in UK from 2030 under PM's green plan

Well, mining has an environmental impact, from cooper, to iron. There's always controversy about who owns the land all around the world. Lithium is not different to disputes over water and oil. If lithium is problematic, well.....let's just remember all the oil inspired wars.

On the other hand, Tesla made 360K cars on 2019, this 2020 looks like 500K cars, and being optimistic 1 million for 2021 and 2 million for 2022?

But that's being very optimistic. For context, 92million cars were made on 2019 around the world. Teslas are popular in CH, but keep the global view since there's 1 global atmosphere. The challenge is making at least 90 million clean vehicles per year.
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  #98  
Old 20.11.2020, 15:19
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Re: Ban on new petrol and diesel cars in UK from 2030 under PM's green plan

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A salt lake. Basically a salt flat with a bit more water. No mountains being destroyed and no forests being torn down.

Despite what is written in your link, China is not that significant a player for Lithium. About 9% of current global production and only 5% of known reserves.

The problem in Tibet is weak to non existent environmental standards. Not Lithium extraction per se.
So explain to me how one of the lithium processes is extraction of lithium from rock does not destroy a mountainside. I saw myself in Tibet on a visit a couple of years back.
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  #99  
Old 20.11.2020, 15:29
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Re: Ban on new petrol and diesel cars in UK from 2030 under PM's green plan

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So explain to me how one of the lithium processes is extraction of lithium from rock does not destroy a mountainside. I saw myself in Tibet on a visit a couple of years back.
All mineral extraction causes destruction. The only difference is that in some countries flora, fauna and aesthetics are considered.

Ever seen mountains disappear in Switzerland to make cement? Of course not, because the mining is executed while minimizing aesthetic impact. Anyway, some mountains are not there anymore.

https://www.google.com/maps/@47.5334.../data=!3m1!1e3
https://www.google.com/maps/dir///@4...e3!4m2!4m1!3e1
https://www.google.com/maps/@47.4219.../data=!3m1!1e3

Also it's kind of curious to burn a few hundred liters of plane fuel to contemplate environmental destruction in all it terrifying greatness. Destroy to get annoyed by destruction. Better read about it, it's more environmentally friendly.
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Old 20.11.2020, 15:48
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Re: Ban on new petrol and diesel cars in UK from 2030 under PM's green plan

BJ can say what he wants, but ultimately it's Parliament that will decide.


I've not read through he whole thread, but someone mentioned Hydrogen. This is the way car manufacturers are going. They are investing hundred's of millions into this technology to develop fuel cells and we'll likely see these models sooner rather than later. This will then leapfrog battery technology making it obsolete.


And the British government is currently providing hundreds of million pounds to companies to research and further develop this technology - so on the face of it, it makes his announcement seem odd!!
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